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Today’s guest once lost in addiction, chaos and criminal activities. He climbed back through discipline, faith and deep inner work. I was exposed to criminality, a different way of being. No violence and selling drugs, stealing cars. [00:00:18:13 – 00:00:31:04] Things sort of went up a few levels, getting more involved with larger thefts of articulate lorries that controlled large amounts of alcohol. And then amongst that, the whole time there was an element of drugs. [00:00:33:10 – 00:00:39:13] Selling, taking, getting to a point where I didn’t no longer look at myself as a criminal. I looked at myself as a businessman. [00:00:42:17 – 00:00:48:22] When did your addiction begin for you? It by a sort of age of 13 was when I first tried to hack it. [00:00:50:19 – 00:00:56:19] I got a phone call from my mum’s neighbour. He said, “Jeff, your mum’s house is being raided.” [00:00:59:06 – 00:01:04:06] I just remember sitting in the car thinking, “Shit, I could be going away for 10 plus years now.” [00:01:05:24 – 00:01:10:03] That was like the start of the next chapter, the next part of my life. [00:01:10:03 – 00:01:16:17] Elliot Ward, what? Addiction specialist, you’ve become a happy queen with me. [00:01:18:17 – 00:02:19:09] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Coming Clean With Me. My name is Elliot Ward, addiction specialist. And today’s guest has overcome addictions. Addictions to the packet, to food and alcohol. Losing over half his body weight, 222 kilos to 114 kilos. Once lost in addiction, chaos and criminal activities, he climbed back through discipline, faith and deep inner work, becoming a present father, a community leader and founder of the Actualization Project, helping youths reclaim their life, resilience and purpose. Please welcome Geoff Charles. How are you doing, Geoff? I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Elliot. It’s a pleasure, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you for coming here, Geoff. Thanks for having me. Let’s kick off. Tell me a little bit about how you were brought up, where you were born, siblings, background, that kind of thing. [00:02:20:15 – 00:02:38:00] Yeah, so I guess quite an ordinary upbringing in some aspects in today’s society, single parent household, born in Harold Wood Hospital, lived in Ilford, Dagnam. [00:02:39:09 – 00:02:41:18] My mum, I’ve got a twin brother, got a little sister. [00:02:43:05 – 00:02:57:13] Yeah, just a sort of a very loving home. My mum was amazing, absolutely incredible. Brought us up from the age of five on our own, single-handedly, very little input from my dad. [00:03:00:02 – 00:03:10:10] Yeah, spent a lot of time in and around the outer, out of sort of East London outskirts, eventually moving to sort of Royal Essex near Burnham-on-Crouch, [00:03:12:00 – 00:03:17:04] and sort of, that was probably aged around eight, I think, roughly. [00:03:18:23 – 00:03:40:20] Yeah, and just sort of relatively the earlier sort of childhood. There was a lot of chaos around at the time when my mum was with my dad, and that was sort of one of the reasons why my mum eventually made the decision to leave, and do it on her own, so she could give us a level of stability that we didn’t have previously. [00:03:42:17 – 00:03:52:06] And from there, I guess, things started to sort of unravel for me personally. [00:03:54:22 – 00:04:43:15] I’d say when I got to probably aged 11, and it’s when I started noticing things, I guess, because up until then we’re quite innocent, aren’t we? We don’t really pay that much attention to the finer detail, and I think it wasn’t until I got into sort of secondary school year seven when I started realising things, how things were different for us compared to my peers and other friends. And I guess that was the start of the journey, I guess, too, which you alluded to earlier, the addiction and the problems that I sort of ended up facing. What was school like for you? Did you want to achieve it? Did you mess around? [00:04:45:05 – 00:04:55:03] I was always told by my teachers in primary school and secondary school that I’ve got so much potential if I were just to apply that potential. [00:04:56:06 – 00:05:23:05] So I was diagnosed with ADHD relatively quite at a young age, end of year six. What age is that for me? I don’t know. So it’s at 10. OK. Yeah. And I think back then, so, you know, 24 years ago, I feel really old saying that, 24 years ago, ADHD wasn’t as mainstream as it is now. [00:05:24:05 – 00:05:37:13] The information available, the knowledge was nowhere near what it is now. And so when I got that diagnosis, I was very much treated almost like an alien. [00:05:38:13 – 00:05:52:22] So, for instance, I was encouraged to sit in a hula hoop in school so that I wouldn’t fidget and I wouldn’t move outside the hula hoop and disturb other students. And, you know, this hula hoop became this sort of safe space for me, but at the same time, in a way, it became like a fortress. [00:05:54:10 – 00:06:01:19] I felt very segregated. And I guess that feeling of feeling segregated and feeling different carried on then into secondary school. [00:06:04:03 – 00:06:08:21] And one thing that come up for me a lot was I had a problem with authority. [00:06:11:06 – 00:06:26:21] And I think that came from the lack of having a present dad, that father figure, positive man, a wrong order in my life, that when authority tried to come down on me, I would often reject it and, you know, protest. [00:06:28:10 – 00:06:33:05] And so that then carried on into secondary school. [00:06:34:19 – 00:06:57:11] And another thing I had a problem with was being in justice and bullies. So that was another thing that I was sort of battling with. I didn’t like people taking advantage of people. I didn’t like people, bullying people, would often get in trouble for sticking up for people, some people I don’t even know or getting myself involved in stuff that didn’t concern me because of this sense of injustice. [00:07:00:24 – 00:07:06:16] And I think by the middle of year eight, so I would have then been 12, [00:07:09:19 – 00:07:12:20] I essentially was removed from school permanently. [00:07:15:16 – 00:08:57:17] And back then there was a program, I guess it was called Work Without Ate Learning. So what that meant was is that I had to find an employer that would employ me at that age, nonpaid, and I would work four days a week and then I was allowed to go into school on a Friday for two hours, two to three hours in a segregated building, we called it the house. And that’s where we done some curriculum and academia. So then I could then achieve basic GCSEs. That very quickly faded out by uni and sort of very rarely went in on the Fridays. But yeah, so school didn’t last very long in terms of secondary school anyway. It says, just reading you through my notes, in terms of your teenage years, you felt the pressure to live up to a criminal persona, to be the tough guy, the street guy. Explain to me what you mean by that. So what happened was when I got into secondary school, I started recognising things, started seeing things, and a realisation, I guess, happened where I realised that we didn’t have a lot at home. And it became more prominent then, in the sense that I had friends that would have the latest trainers, they’d go on holiday, they’d always have money in their pocket, etc, etc. That became a bit of a problem for me. I became quite resentful, not at the people, but at that fact. And with that resentment there came anger and I guess an appetite for wanting more. And in doing so, I looked at different ways of achieving, you know, getting those things. [00:09:00:05 – 00:09:19:14] And essentially when I did get removed from school, I started working, building site, labour. And of course in that environment at a young age, 12, 13, I’m working with older guys in their 30s, their 40s, their 50s. Some of these guys are criminals themselves. [00:09:20:14 – 00:09:49:10] And of course, being a young man, not having that father figure, I was craving that. I wanted that positive male role model. I wanted somebody that I could look up to, someone that would take me under their wing, you know, look after me so to speak. So that’s what I did. I found people that would, you know, in a sense look after me in their own little way they did. But at the same time then I was exposed to criminality. I was exposed to a sort of a different way of being. [00:09:51:15 – 00:09:51:24] Such as? [00:09:54:01 – 00:10:14:04] I guess, the way I was at that age, I was quite impressionable. And I was exposed to, you know, violence and criminality in selling drugs or stealing cars. [00:10:15:05 – 00:10:35:04] So I looked up to these guys, I thought they were amazing, great men. And in their own way, I’m not going to take that away from them, in their own way, they had things about them that were admirable. You know, they did. They had a level of resilience, a level of honour amongst thieves, so to speak. [00:10:36:05 – 00:10:46:12] And I guess it was then for me, I was like, well, I want to be like these guys, you know, I want to get to the level that they’re at, I want to become like them. [00:10:48:10 – 00:11:02:04] And then with that, they became this sort of pull and push of characters within myself. So the real me, the true me, and then this version of me that I wanted to become based on those that surrounded me and that I looked up to. [00:11:03:21 – 00:11:20:22] And that wasn’t a healthy way to be, I guess, because, you know, getting involved in that criminality. Or did you actually have to get involved doing it? Just hypothetically? [00:11:22:05 – 00:11:43:04] So hypothetically speaking, you know, very at the beginning, I guess it was low level sort of stuff. It was diggers and plant, you know, stealing diggers and plant, you know, repurposing them, stealing them on. [00:11:44:05 – 00:12:00:04] And it sort of then things sort of went up a few levels, like getting more involved with larger thefts of perhaps articulated lorries that controlled, that contained large amounts of alcohol. [00:12:01:05 – 00:12:11:20] And then it really then, I guess in and amongst that, the whole time there was an element of drugs, [00:12:12:22 – 00:12:23:04] whatever it be, packet or cannabis, selling, doing, taking. [00:12:24:04 – 00:12:29:01] So that was always that was that element of that was always weaved in for that criminality. [00:12:32:18 – 00:12:37:04] And it was an easy way to make money. It was an easy way to make money. [00:12:40:09 – 00:13:00:19] But it came at a cost. It came at a cost that I didn’t realize at the time. And so then this persona, this person that you sort of, I was slowly becoming this sort of person who believed that to be successful, I had to be feared, I had to be respected, I had to be violent, [00:13:03:12 – 00:13:08:23] to sort of make decisions about fearing the consequences of those decisions. [00:13:10:04 – 00:13:11:01] Such as? [00:13:13:08 – 00:13:24:23] You know, if someone perhaps owed money, you know, you’d go to extreme measures to get that money back for acts of violence, for acts of fear and threatening people. [00:13:27:19 – 00:13:50:19] You know, you sort of wanted it to be known as that person that would get things done. And if they said something, they’d follow through with action, you know, but whilst all of this was going on and again, this spanned a long time. This went on for 10 years, started off a very low level of criminality. [00:13:52:11 – 00:14:07:01] As you can imagine, the usual sort of stuff in pubs and bits and pieces. And ended up sort of then getting to a point where I didn’t no longer look at myself as a criminal, as a drug dealer. I looked at myself as a businessman. [00:14:08:10 – 00:14:43:04] As you do, you sort of think, I’m not a drug dealer. And you try and justify your actions by giving yourself a different title or perhaps investing into businesses or site and businesses to legitimize the money that you’ve got and to make yourself feel better, essentially. And that’s what I did eventually, you know, I got to a certain level where I was, you know, I was no longer one of the sort of low level lads in pubs and bars and clubs or out on the street. I was sort of moving up higher in the food chain, I guess. [00:14:44:04 – 00:15:07:04] And so then, you know, but whilst all of this time over this 10 year period, this this this everything that I was doing played played heavily on me because I knew what I was doing was immoral. It was unethical. It was illegal. And every single day there was this battle between, you know, my conscience. You know, I know what I’m doing is wrong, but yet I still carry on doing it. [00:15:08:04 – 00:15:30:22] Devil on one shoulder, angel on the other. No, I shouldn’t do that. But go on, just do it. Exactly. Yeah. And obviously with that, when you’ve got that them two things go in each other, it’s creates a lot of psychological tension because again, he’s that that sort of you’ve got your true self and your ideal self. And I just I remember every single day. [00:15:33:15 – 00:15:48:02] I’ll be living like in a state of heightened awareness and anxiety. And it was home. I didn’t know it. I just felt very hyper vigilant, very alert and aware that any moment the ground beneath my feet could just fall away. [00:15:49:18 – 00:15:52:07] And that was a nice way to live. You know. [00:15:56:13 – 00:16:22:04] Yeah, it was it was difficult because, you know, I’d wake up every day and I’d thank I’d thank God. I thank you for this day and please let me help me get through this day. And at the end of the day, I’ll be like, you know, thank you again for helping me survive another day because that was the reality of it. If it wasn’t, if it weren’t getting killed, it would be getting arrested, losing my freedom, losing my liberty. [00:16:23:04 – 00:16:39:01] Then obviously family come into it, you know, then you start worrying about, you know, because by by by sort of towards the end of that that criminality, I was a dad. I had one son and my then partner was pregnant with my second son. [00:16:40:06 – 00:16:57:01] And so I was in this predicament of, you know, if I carry on doing what I’m doing, I’ll potentially going to be living my children in a position, the same position that I was in. I was in without an active father and they then, you know, the cycle doesn’t break. [00:16:58:17 – 00:17:20:04] Even I knew these facts, I still didn’t stop. And I think I think that’s the thing as well with that lifestyle and all that whole area of criminality is that I think it can be harder to stop being involved in that criminality than it can be to stop actually doing the drug that you might be taking. [00:17:21:04 – 00:17:37:04] Because that then becomes sort of an addiction in itself, you know, the highs and lows of that lifestyle, you know, the the fast pace, the quick money, the reputation, the glamour. [00:17:38:04 – 00:18:21:04] But then what you don’t see, even if the surface is that is the dark side of that, the impact that you have on on people around you, your own family, people that perhaps that you sell to. When did your addiction begin for you? So I guess it from a very young age, I remember in in year seven, like within the first, which is age 11. I remember in year seven, being at the bus stop and like one of the it was an older lad there who would get on the same bus and he would smoke in the telephone box. [00:18:22:04 – 00:18:48:23] And I remember smoking a joint then. And then I started sort of smoking cannabis at that age, on and off. And then by a sort of age, I’d say 13 was when I first tried cocaine packet. [00:18:50:21 – 00:19:39:10] And at that point, it was like it wasn’t it was it was something because I was so young. Hold on, hold on. Thirteen. How did that come about? It was a friend, older, older friend, again, on on the building site. And it was just it was something that was it was sort of being passed around. And it was like, do you want a bump? And I just thought, yeah, I’ll try it. You know, not really knowing. And I remember doing it. I was just like, it felt it felt really weird. And strangely enough, at that age, at that time, it wasn’t it was it didn’t grab a hold of me then. It didn’t because it was like then from the age of 13 till I was like 17, it was sort of one of those things where I could take it or leave it. [00:19:40:24 – 00:19:51:04] I guess it was like the the the addiction took hold as when as I got older and sort of was involved, you know, it was always around me. [00:19:54:03 – 00:20:01:24] You know, it was literally always around me. There was ways it was always available. So you were in that world. Exactly. Yeah. [00:20:03:05 – 00:20:20:02] And, you know, it become a norm. It was it was it become a social norm, not just for myself, but my my circle, my social circle, my friends. For instance, you know, go and pick up on a Thursday, might go and pick up a kilo and then you break that down. [00:20:22:01 – 00:20:30:04] And then what I do is I break it all down and then I might take out half ounce for me. You know, and then that would be my bit. [00:20:31:04 – 00:20:39:19] And so I always knew I had that there on tap to use as and when I wanted to. [00:20:41:23 – 00:20:45:05] And and that’s the thing. It’s like it happened very gradually, [00:20:46:16 – 00:21:00:13] slowly crept up and it would become very like the day would start off. We’d get up and go for breakfast. We go to the gym. Then we might have lunch. And then after lunch, that’d be it. [00:21:01:15 – 00:21:37:04] Little bump, little lion. Then that would carry on. Throughout the day into into into the night. And one thing that I was always always good at was I wasn’t sort of one very, very rarely once in a blue moon. I wouldn’t go through the night. I wouldn’t do like an all night. I would stop. I’d be two, three in the morning, but I would always sleep because I knew the next day I had to be active. But then it became very normalised and it was just something that was done. It was like, read you for a bottle of water. [00:21:38:04 – 00:21:48:21] And yeah, it was insidious. It just it just not just my own life, but my friends circle that I was in. [00:21:49:22 – 00:22:04:04] It sort of infiltrated everybody’s life very gradually. And I’ve lost friends through the packet, you know, through suicide, through. [00:22:05:04 – 00:22:20:04] A car accident when they’re on their way to pick up, you know, so it’s been a lot of loss around it as well. What was going on emotionally at that time when you first when you were using it and what was going on in your life emotionally? [00:22:21:04 – 00:22:34:22] If I’m honest, I think at that stage in my life, I couldn’t have named the emotions that I was feeling and what I felt and what I thought. [00:22:36:04 – 00:22:57:13] I was so wrapped up in that life. And I wasn’t aware of anything other than I knew I needed to carry on doing what I was doing. And I was sort of the business that I had I built from scratch. So it was like my baby and that that that essentially up at that first over everything. [00:23:00:10 – 00:23:07:04] But if I look back now and I reflect and I think about the emotions I was feeling, I think I was feeling extremely insecure, [00:23:08:04 – 00:23:22:17] anxious, scared, very lost. I didn’t I didn’t know where I was going. I didn’t know what tomorrow would bring. [00:23:25:03 – 00:23:54:04] I was just living moment to moment, you know, day to day. And I think again, it’s that that persona of this this man that I thought I should be, this sort of alpha male, you know, flash, violent, angry that I’d become pushed me so much further away from the man that I knew I could be. [00:23:55:04 – 00:24:03:19] And even at that stage for all of the addiction and for the chaos, for the violence, the man that I could be, there was glimpses of him. [00:24:05:06 – 00:24:29:16] There was glimpses in my in my in my core. I was still a good person, but I was just doing shit things. Tell me about your journey with the packet, then how that escalated, where it got to with alcohol without alcohol. Tell me about that journey. So when I when I when I first started using the packet regularly, the first couple of years, I didn’t I didn’t really drink with it. [00:24:30:16 – 00:24:45:21] And I always remember going out, being with a group of friends and bearing in mind, I must be like, I’m not 16 at this point. And they were in their 30s and 40s. And I had a fake ID. So I used to use that to get into clubs or bars. [00:24:48:08 – 00:24:57:00] And one of my really, really close friends, look, he knew that I didn’t really drink, he knew. [00:24:58:10 – 00:25:25:04] But then his friends would be like, why are you not why are you not drinking? Why are you not drinking? I don’t really like it. I don’t want to drink. I just like just doing just doing the packet and that’s me. I’m sweet. And I was fine doing that. And that was for the first couple of years. And then eventually I gave into the alcohol and it became one of those things of like one without the other. You can’t have a drink without a packet. You can’t have a packet about drink. It’s like bread and butter. It had to be together. [00:25:26:04 – 00:25:40:16] And again, that escalated and escalated where I was using pretty much every day to the point where I remember like laying in bed. [00:25:42:07 – 00:26:05:04] And I had a bed with like a wood surrounding base. And I remember sort of at this point, I must be like 30 stone and I’d lean over and on the wood, I’d have a few lines of activity. And I’d just lean over and just sniff and then lay back down. Wow. Not even moving. No. No. Do you think you are still stuck in the hula hoop from school? [00:26:07:09 – 00:26:22:04] I think that hula hoop. Yeah, I think that that that sort of representation of that that sort of that circle of of being most definitely, you know, I was I was stuck in this regimented. [00:26:23:04 – 00:26:26:08] Obsession of being this this person. [00:26:30:11 – 00:26:34:07] And using to numb what was really going on for me. [00:26:36:13 – 00:26:40:04] And at your worst, what did your addiction look like? What did your day look like? [00:26:41:04 – 00:26:47:15] You know, not getting out of bed till late morning. [00:26:49:16 – 00:26:51:07] You know, not looking after myself. [00:26:52:24 – 00:27:11:01] And, you know, with with the packet, the thing is, it’s like you’ve never given yourself a chance to catch up. So you’ll never use sort of your brain is completely depleted of any dopamine. So you’re just sort of you’re an autopilot almost. And then your body, you end up eating crap food. [00:27:12:08 – 00:27:17:01] You know, it’s that vicious circle. It’s like you’re never giving yourself a chance to breathe. [00:27:20:23 – 00:28:07:05] And, you know, you sort of get through as much as you could of the day until you then do your first line or your first bump. And then that whole vicious cycle starts again. And. I just remember multiple occasions, you know, I’m laying there and I’m thinking, if I carry on like this, I’m just going to I’m going to get over. There’s no way I can carry on eating what I eat, drinking what I drink, sniffing what I’m sniffing. Being 30 on stone. What sort of quantity were you sniffing about this point and how frequently? So I was never a morning sniffer. It would always be after lunch. It was like an unwritten rule that I had. It was always after lunch. [00:28:09:22 – 00:28:10:16] And it would be. [00:28:12:07 – 00:28:15:00] Every 20 minutes, a lion, a bump. [00:28:19:20 – 00:28:23:19] Yeah. And I’d say the quantity because I was always a group of people as well. [00:28:26:01 – 00:28:33:18] The quantity of the quantity. It could vary, you know, it could vary from a Henry to three point five grand to seven grand a day. [00:28:34:18 – 00:28:36:13] Because you’re sharing it is what you understand. [00:28:37:16 – 00:28:42:08] And sometimes it could be more than that, depending on what we was doing. [00:28:44:10 – 00:28:50:10] What made you what made you decide to stop was legal trouble? Was it conscience? What was that? [00:28:51:12 – 00:28:51:19] So. [00:28:54:13 – 00:29:01:24] There was many moments throughout my life, throughout that period of my life, there were like signs. [00:29:03:18 – 00:29:07:16] There were moments, they were like they were like moments where I could have walked away, but I didn’t. [00:29:09:12 – 00:29:16:10] And those moments would come and then they’d go. I didn’t walk away. And then there was this then there was one moment. [00:29:18:19 – 00:29:20:04] And I was sitting in my car. [00:29:21:04 – 00:29:24:18] And I didn’t long just. [00:29:26:09 – 00:29:27:00] Picked up. [00:29:28:15 – 00:29:31:09] And it was a Thursday. I got a phone call from. [00:29:32:24 – 00:29:33:06] My. [00:29:34:06 – 00:29:34:24] Mum’s neighbour. [00:29:36:12 – 00:29:37:09] And he said. [00:29:38:17 – 00:29:51:10] Jeff, your mum’s house is being raided. And it’s the first time that I’ve ever been raided. I just remember coming with a phone, thinking, shit, they’ve got me. [00:29:52:21 – 00:30:02:00] And I was so I always prided myself in how careful I was. You know, my in that business, you can’t be making enemies. [00:30:03:01 – 00:30:18:22] You have to make more friends than you do enemies because those enemies are just going to. You know, they could just grass you up. You know, it’s the quickest way to get rid of someone. So the more allies you had, the more friends you had, you know, keep the equilibrium, keep it level. [00:30:21:04 – 00:30:33:16] And I was quite under the radar as well. And I always I thought I’ve always covered all bases. You know, I’m careful. And yes, I my mum’s got raided and I just remember coming to the phone and in that moment. [00:30:35:21 – 00:30:43:08] My ex then was seven months pregnant with my second son. I just remember sitting in the car thinking shit. [00:30:45:21 – 00:31:02:16] I could be going away for 10 plus years now. And I’m going to be leaving my kids in a position where they could end up following a Muffet steps because I’m not around to guide them. I’m there to teach them. I’m there to help them. [00:31:03:22 – 00:31:08:03] And it was from that moment that one phone call and that one moment I decided enough is enough. I stop him. [00:31:10:01 – 00:31:24:18] And I then spent like a week in different places, staying in hotels because I do in my head, I thought, OK, the police raided my mum’s. I didn’t find anything. I thought, you know, they’re just looking for me now. [00:31:28:09 – 00:31:39:12] And so I completely come away from any any any investments that I had, any sort of legitimate businesses, any investments I sort of over the space of a week. I got rid of everything. I sold everything. [00:31:41:23 – 00:31:54:00] And the idea that, you know, any money I collected in that I had would then be put away whilst I was in prison so that my kids and my then partner could survive, essentially. [00:31:56:03 – 00:31:59:12] And then that never came. You know, you know, nothing ever come of that. [00:32:01:03 – 00:32:19:07] I managed to walk away. And I guess that chapter of that then my life, then that’s where it ended. You know, the criminality. And you carried on using. Yeah. What was your lowest point with your using? [00:32:22:01 – 00:32:26:04] I would say it would have been after the breakdown of my family. [00:32:33:09 – 00:32:35:09] So at this point. [00:32:39:21 – 00:32:43:01] The breakdown started probably in late 2017. [00:32:44:19 – 00:32:54:21] And at this point, I was a father of three. And I left my family home and had nothing. And I was a father of three. And I left my family home and had nothing. I had nothing. [00:32:56:20 – 00:33:00:22] So I was living in a spare room of one of my best friend’s house is Chris. [00:33:03:10 – 00:33:16:20] And I had nothing. I literally had nothing. I had to start again. I had to come to terms with the fact that I am going to be a part time dad, which was something I never wanted. [00:33:19:10 – 00:33:24:16] And that caused me to be a part time dad. And I had to come to terms with the fact that I am going to be a part time dad, which was something I never wanted. And that caused me to spiral massively. I felt like a failure. I felt ashamed. [00:33:28:04 – 00:33:30:01] Yeah, I was extremely lost and low. [00:33:31:21 – 00:33:44:19] And in reality at this point, after I left the criminality, I went into the gas industry. So at this point, I’d been in the gas industry then for like four or five years. [00:33:46:21 – 00:33:48:13] And I was doing well in terms of career. [00:33:51:22 – 00:33:55:16] So I’m paper, you know, I’ve got three beautiful children, careers goods. [00:33:57:20 – 00:34:03:19] But I was, you know, family had broken down. I was in my mates spare room and I had nothing. [00:34:07:08 – 00:34:19:14] And that then become, you know, very, very long period of depression, suicidal ideation. [00:34:21:12 – 00:34:33:14] And using, you know, and obviously using doing packet only perpetuates that mood and that, you know, cycle of fault. [00:34:36:17 – 00:34:39:15] I guess. [00:34:42:08 – 00:34:54:08] A little while after that, I moved, I managed to get a flat. And I was in this flat, you know, things were getting better, but I was still using. [00:34:55:16 – 00:34:58:05] At this point, I was 34, 35 stone. [00:35:00:12 – 00:35:24:22] Things had settled a little bit with my then ex and the contact of my kids was, you know, regular, stable, but I was still deeply, deeply unhappy, still carrying a lot. I was ashamed of myself, you know, a lot of that come from how I was physically how I looked. I was extremely overweight, didn’t look after myself, had no pride in how I looked. [00:35:27:10 – 00:35:29:01] And was still using. [00:35:30:11 – 00:35:33:01] And I think that I remember. [00:35:35:22 – 00:35:46:08] Going to pick the kids up from school and I’d walk in and I was the biggest, the biggest guy, the biggest, the biggest guy. The fatest dad there. And I just remember just feeling so ashamed and just be like. [00:35:48:14 – 00:36:00:14] My kids have got like the fast dad and eventually there’s going to get a point where as they get older, they could get bullied for having a fat overweight dad and just all of these thoughts going on in my head, all of this shame and guilt. [00:36:01:24 – 00:36:02:24] And feeling like a failure. [00:36:06:01 – 00:36:08:04] And there was a moment where I took the kids to a soft play. [00:36:09:04 – 00:36:19:18] And I was a big guy, but I tried my best to be active and run around with them and stuff. I’m chasing a man, the soft play as you do, you know, sweating and huffing and puffing. [00:36:21:05 – 00:36:27:06] I remember this young lad that sort of ended up joining, playing with my kids and he’s playing along like they do. [00:36:29:00 – 00:36:47:07] And he said to me, he goes, he looked at me, he goes, wow, you’re so fat. And I felt of my kids and obviously, you know, he’s an innocent child, but they’ve got no filter of they say it is. And my oldest son looked at him and he said, my dad’s not fat. He’s just a giant. [00:36:50:02 – 00:36:55:18] And in that moment, I was like, oh shit. [00:36:57:08 – 00:37:01:21] My son is defending me. My son is defending me. [00:37:04:04 – 00:37:19:06] And I just, I just, yeah, I just felt so ashamed, so angry of myself. And when we’re getting back to my flat, just crying and then they went home. [00:37:20:24 – 00:37:26:12] And I just thought to myself, you know what, I can’t have this. They’re better off without me. That’s how I felt. [00:37:29:06 – 00:37:33:16] And I remember getting some packing and I was sniffing and sniffing and. [00:37:36:16 – 00:37:44:05] I just thought to myself, you know, that’s enough. That’s it. I’m done. I’m done with this. I’m done with feeling how I’m feeling. [00:37:45:12 – 00:37:49:04] I’d convince myself that the kids would be better off without me. That’s you know, that’s where I got to. [00:37:50:04 – 00:37:57:09] And I filmed like a series of videos, different videos, put out 14 in total. [00:37:59:01 – 00:38:09:03] Video throughout their wedding, for when they pass the GCCs, for when they get their first boyfriend or girlfriend, for times when they’re feeling down, when they’re feeling low. [00:38:10:24 – 00:38:22:12] That video of me, you know, just talking. One of the videos is ironically is like me saying to him, you know, through life, you’re going to get hurdles and you’re going to have obstacles. But you’ll get through it or jump over it. I’m giving him this encouragement. [00:38:23:14 – 00:38:33:02] I’m filming these videos moments before I try to take my own life. I’m encouraging them to persevere and get through life. Ironic. Exactly. Yeah. [00:38:35:04 – 00:38:37:13] So I’d say that was the lowest point. [00:38:39:04 – 00:38:43:19] That I got to where I tried to take my own life and. [00:38:45:14 – 00:38:46:13] What was the starting point? [00:38:49:12 – 00:38:51:10] I think after after that event. [00:38:55:22 – 00:38:58:03] I had a really sort of. [00:39:00:03 – 00:39:01:08] Date moment of reflection. [00:39:03:05 – 00:39:07:22] And introspection and looking back and thinking about all of the things that have happened to me. [00:39:10:10 – 00:39:14:21] All of the events. One of the violence, the pain. [00:39:16:13 – 00:39:18:24] That was inflicted on me and the eye inflicted on others. [00:39:20:10 – 00:39:21:20] Moments where. [00:39:25:12 – 00:39:27:18] Life could have gone a very different way for me. [00:39:28:20 – 00:39:30:21] You know, and it hadn’t. [00:39:32:08 – 00:39:34:13] And I said to myself, there has to be a reason for that. [00:39:35:23 – 00:39:43:23] I’ve survived this attempt. I’ve survived everything that I’ve survived up until this point. And it has to be a reason for that. [00:39:46:09 – 00:39:47:16] And that from that moment. [00:39:49:17 – 00:39:57:20] That was like this, the start of the next chapter, the next part of my life where I took control back. [00:40:02:04 – 00:40:04:04] And made the decision that. [00:40:05:04 – 00:40:06:03] Tomorrow. [00:40:08:01 – 00:40:13:05] I’m not going to. Drink that beer. I’m not going to sniff that lion. [00:40:14:12 – 00:40:23:04] Then the next day I might say, I’m not going to. Drink that kind of coke. You know, so day by day, decision by decision. [00:40:25:23 – 00:40:35:24] I was making the steps towards the man that I knew I could become. And the man I knew I was deep down. [00:40:37:11 – 00:40:44:07] I didn’t know how I was going to get there, but I just knew day by day. What was your first sign of recovery? [00:40:47:09 – 00:40:48:20] The power to say no. [00:40:50:14 – 00:40:52:13] The first time I turned down. [00:40:53:17 – 00:40:54:10] And invite out. [00:40:57:08 – 00:41:28:18] That was like a really big moment. You know, it’s like because I always just suffer with that FOMO fear of missing out. And you know, when you got friends and bits and pieces that people are saying, oh, do you want to get a bit packet? Should we have a few? Should we get on it, mate? Yeah. Yeah. She had a cheeky one. Just a couple and then we called it a day, you know that. And I think the moment that I said no. That became it became addictive almost. [00:41:30:20 – 00:41:38:17] Having that autonomy to say no, having the power, taking the control back from having something that had control over me for so long. [00:41:39:19 – 00:41:44:00] Then for me to be able to take that control back and be the captain of the ship. [00:41:46:19 – 00:41:47:06] That was. [00:41:48:19 – 00:41:59:18] And it wasn’t like it wasn’t the entire thing. And it wasn’t and it wasn’t like it wasn’t neat and tidy. The journey. It wasn’t like a straight linear journey of like, you know, recovery. [00:42:03:04 – 00:42:04:19] It wasn’t. It was messy. [00:42:05:21 – 00:42:09:24] There was moments I fell down. There was moments I fell short. [00:42:13:11 – 00:42:14:23] But they were moments. [00:42:17:13 – 00:42:21:07] Moments in time. And that was that was the big thing for me. It was. [00:42:23:04 – 00:42:25:06] Realizing that these moments don’t define. [00:42:26:17 – 00:42:27:23] What tomorrow’s going to look like. [00:42:29:01 – 00:42:32:20] Our past actions and things that I’ve done doesn’t define the person I am. [00:42:35:06 – 00:42:37:14] That was when things really start to change. [00:42:39:03 – 00:42:39:24] Good for you. [00:42:41:07 – 00:43:15:07] I’m just going to change this up a little bit because I sent you an impulsivity test. I thought it’d be interesting to do an impulsivity test on you just for yourself and for people listening or watching. Let me just explain this. So with every one of my patients I run a whole series of psychological diagnostic tests ADHD impulsivity emotional dysregulation and then build a case history. Build a case history from that to understand the patient to understand their values their beliefs their experiences their upbringing. [00:43:17:05 – 00:43:34:04] And from there build a whole case individually. So one of the components one of the small components is the impulsivity test. So I thought it’d be fun to send you the impulsivity test and then to diagnose you on the podcast. [00:43:35:15 – 00:43:42:04] So your score was 62. And I have analyzed this for you. This sits in the average range. [00:43:43:04 – 00:44:22:04] This means you’re not wildly impulsive overall but you’re also not especially restrained in terms of addiction and average score often shows someone who can think ahead but doesn’t doesn’t always do it consistently. It’s like you can see the future but you’re not always consistent in your actions to get to the future. You especially feel boredom or emotional discomfort and I think the emotion is comfort is interesting just reading you and with nasal ingestion of you know what this level of impulsiveness it lines up with binge style patterns which is really interesting based upon what you said long stretches of control followed by moments where urges override planning which is exactly what you’ve been talking about. [00:44:32:19 – 00:45:02:19] And I did this before we went and before we discussed your attention is number nine. This is around the mid range. It suggests someone who can focus but is easily pulled off track when stress tired or overwhelmed in real life it shows up as living the thread of task drifting during conversation. And then you can see the mid range. It suggests someone who can focus but is easily pulled off track when stress tired or overwhelmed in real life it shows up as living the thread of task drifting during conversations or finding it hard to stay locked onto one thing for long with nasal ingestion of you know what it’s kind of like that cycle takes you back down that track. [00:45:03:20 – 00:45:21:08] Your cognitive instability number six this slightly leans towards the lower side it means the mind is fairly steady doesn’t jump all over the place and your thoughts are slightly less spirally than they could be at that level but your thoughts are also unpredictable. [00:45:23:08 – 00:45:41:19] And then your motor score which is fourteen is a high score pointing to more action driven impulsivity it means you act quickly sometimes before thinking and this looks like things on the spur of the moment you do things without much thought about them which is one of the massive traits of people who have an addiction. [00:45:42:20 – 00:46:01:19] Your strongest behavior prediction is you have sudden urges to do something and you respond to them without that gap of or without thinking about that gap between should I and doing that gap is slightly missing it’s smaller. [00:46:02:20 – 00:47:18:19] Self-control is 13 is on the higher side suggestion a good ability to plan which fits in with work Etc right anticipate consequences in terms of being sober calm states and you’ll be more responsible and measurable in your decisions and you’re also able to delay gratification that’s one of the huge components of using that it’s instant gratification I need this right now. And one of the coping strategies for dealing with you know you know what is to be able to delay gratification and that’s what you’re able to do cognitive complexity 12 this sits above average it reflects someone who makes nuances makes connections and can handle multiple streams of information in day to day life you slightly pretty switched on right looks good for problem solving strong. Reasoning and the ability to understand situations from different angles in addiction behavior higher complexity can sometimes mean overthink it that’s certainly you or rationalizing creating elaborate internal arguments to justify one more night I’ll just do it again just tonight. [00:47:19:20 – 00:47:31:23] So overall this is what I’ve written the overall the total score and pattern shows someone who’s impulsiveness is mainly driven by behavioral impulse rather than emotional chaos. [00:47:33:01 – 00:48:07:16] They can think rationally plan well but their action impulses and dips in perseverance it creates cracks so there’s cracks within that you have to focus concentrate on that. This combination is common in people who function at a high level in daily life yet struggle privately with nasal ingestion of you know what especially moments of emotional fatigue and reward seeking behavior how does that sound interesting yeah interesting a lot of that rings true yeah a lot of that rings true most definitely. [00:48:08:20 – 00:48:14:19] Yeah insightful yeah and how do you stay sober today. [00:48:15:20 – 00:48:18:07] You know I think. [00:48:22:03 – 00:48:30:21] The main thing I always think about now is the consequences of that if I was to decide to to do packet Howard feel tomorrow. Howard feel tomorrow. [00:48:32:04 – 00:48:43:01] The moment you sober up and that feeling and that place isn’t something that I never want to revisit and that really helps me to stay true to myself and. [00:48:46:01 – 00:48:46:09] I think. [00:48:47:20 – 00:48:52:11] The other thing is is you know is my purpose and what I’m doing. [00:48:54:04 – 00:48:59:16] You know we’ve we’ve. My duty not just as as. [00:49:02:20 – 00:49:18:00] Someone who’s working with individuals but as a father and as a partner that comes about everything else you know. Do you have a do you have a certain routine though to stay sober to stay clean there’s certain things you put in place certain things you do. [00:49:19:00 – 00:49:19:10] I think. [00:49:21:19 – 00:49:23:22] I don’t go out. [00:49:25:16 – 00:49:30:21] Hardly ever now you know I would often I was I was quite social I’d always go out events etc but. [00:49:32:04 – 00:49:45:07] Now is something that I don’t do it doesn’t interest me so I keep myself out of environments that may be perhaps triggering. But also prayer as well you know my faith is something that’s carried me through. [00:49:46:24 – 00:49:52:13] All of this and has been a choir and card that I didn’t really realize that I had. [00:49:54:15 – 00:50:01:03] That’s something that’s become a really prominent part of my life now so you know prayer meditation. [00:50:02:20 – 00:50:06:06] Being grounded reflective processes journaling. [00:50:07:14 – 00:50:11:20] Speaking you enjoy generally I do yeah yeah yeah I do. [00:50:13:20 – 00:50:18:00] I journal I journal through voice I record myself talking. [00:50:19:07 – 00:50:21:21] You go back and listen to. Yeah I do yeah yeah. [00:50:23:02 – 00:50:34:13] I transcribe it once it’s been recorded and I could be in the car and I just press record and I have a moment and introspective full or feeling and I’ll and I’ll record it I’ll talk about it. [00:50:36:17 – 00:50:45:12] And I think therapy as well as played a big part in it you know seeking therapy and doing that work as uncomfortable as that is and it can be. [00:50:46:20 – 00:51:13:18] I think that’s played a massive role in my recovery and the success of my recovery and brotherhood as well being around like-minded individuals people that are on a similar path perhaps of recovery or self-improvement and having that level of self-awareness. If you if you could transport yourself back to when you first started using. [00:51:15:02 – 00:51:17:21] What is the one golden nugget. [00:51:19:04 – 00:51:20:19] That you would tell your younger self. [00:51:29:03 – 00:51:29:14] Call. [00:51:30:20 – 00:51:47:13] I probably start off by saying you know. [00:51:51:06 – 00:51:52:08] Stronger than what you think. [00:51:58:06 – 00:52:01:07] Yeah you’re strong on what you think and it you’ll be okay. [00:52:06:20 – 00:52:08:01] Listen to that feeling. [00:52:10:07 – 00:52:18:10] Because throughout my life I’ve had this feeling this there’s been something there and I’m not up until the last couple of years I’ve never really been able to name what that was. [00:52:19:20 – 00:52:38:16] Something scratching at the surface I mean knocking at the door. It’s always been there always been there constantly something inside me saying this is more than this is more than this. There’s something else going on. You’re you know you can do better than this you’re better than this and I’d always try and shut up. [00:52:42:20 – 00:52:51:18] It’s been a quiet strength that’s been in me throughout my life that’s somehow helped me bounce back from multiple things multiple times. [00:52:53:24 – 00:53:01:02] And I would say to myself you need to listen to that and you need to hold on to it and you need to fan the flame you need to nurture it. [00:53:04:10 – 00:53:35:11] And that’s what I would say to others as well is like if there is something inside you that’s telling you that what you’re doing is wrong and that you’re better than this or this quiet thing this resilience this strength that’s within you you need to listen to it because it’s there for a reason. And for me I’ve now later on discovered that it is me is my faith it is my you know my faith that has helped me get through all of this and helps me stay grounded. [00:53:37:14 – 00:53:45:16] What do you think has been the most rewarding part of all of this for yourself coming out the other side? [00:53:49:11 – 00:54:15:15] I think first and foremost is obviously that my my my oldest my two oldest sons they’re eleven and twelve they’ve they’ve been able to see me go through this transformation and they remember me what I was like before and they see me how I am now. And for me that’s been a beautiful thing you know doing things with the kids that I couldn’t do before going to a theme park going on a roller coaster. [00:54:16:20 – 00:54:18:01] Being active. [00:54:21:05 – 00:54:43:07] I think that’s that first and foremost is that is that is the biggest reward and then I guess helping others you know using my testimony and my experience and things I’ve been through and helping others for perhaps the facing that are similar. [00:54:45:20 – 00:54:53:00] But that’s the biggest is that one of the biggest takeaways is that this this this desire to serve others now and help others. [00:54:54:19 – 00:55:43:14] I think I see a lot with people who overcome addiction and it’s a commendable thing it really is. I think as long as it’s channeled in the right way. I think there’s a lot of people who channel it in an incorrect way because they did it for them and they want to share that with somebody else but that was their journey and they don’t necessarily have the skills that for others journeys but I think it’s a really commendable thing that people do. What would be your final message to someone who’s wants to stop hasn’t yet been able to has so many seeds of self doubt in themselves. Maybe they’re overweight like you were once maybe they’re stuck in that right. Maybe they lost a parent like we both did. You know I don’t know what their background is right now but what’s the one thing you’d say to them just to sum up and finalize today. [00:55:47:04 – 00:55:54:12] I’d use an analogy and I’d say to them you need to think yourself as a as a potato. [00:55:56:11 – 00:56:10:01] If you think of a potato it’s a very basic root vegetable but it’s a hardy root vegetable and regardless of the environment you find a potato in can be the coldest darkest cupboard a dampest seller. [00:56:12:09 – 00:56:22:03] As long as there’s a sliver of light that potato will strive and will grow will shoot a sprout towards that light and grow. [00:56:24:11 – 00:56:36:05] So we are very much like potatoes in the sense that regardless of the environment that we’re in as long as we can see the smallest sliver of light and that could look like family. [00:56:37:06 – 00:57:01:07] It could look like friends you know it could look like going to the gym could look like faith community wherever it may be find that light and grow your sprout because we are able to do it. We are very good. I think I’d be a there’s a King Edward potatoes. Yeah I think I’ll just be a king of it. [00:57:02:21 – 00:57:08:21] Jeff Charles thank you for coming clean with me and I appreciate your time. Thanks your time. Thank you.” content_alignment_medium=”” content_alignment_small=”” content_alignment=”” disable_idd=”no” hide_on_mobile=”small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility” sticky_display=”normal,sticky” class=”” id=”” html_attributes=”W10=” width_medium=”” width_small=”” width=”” min_width_medium=”” min_width_small=”” min_width=”” max_width_medium=”” max_width_small=”” max_width=”” margin_top_medium=”” margin_right_medium=”” margin_bottom_medium=”” margin_left_medium=”” margin_top_small=”” margin_right_small=”” margin_bottom_small=”” margin_left_small=”” margin_top=”” margin_right=”” margin_bottom=”” margin_left=”” fusion_font_family_text_font=”” fusion_font_variant_text_font=”” font_size=”” line_height=”” letter_spacing=”” text_transform=”” text_color=”” render_logics=”” logics=”” animation_type=”” animation_direction=”left” animation_color=”” animation_speed=”0.3″ animation_delay=”0″ animation_offset=””][00:00:00:01 – 00:00:16:15] Today’s guest once lost in addiction, chaos and criminal activities. He climbed back through discipline, faith and deep inner work. I was exposed to criminality, a different way of being. No violence and selling drugs, stealing cars.

[00:00:18:13 – 00:00:31:04] Things sort of went up a few levels, getting more involved with larger thefts of articulate lorries that controlled large amounts of alcohol. And then amongst that, the whole time there was an element of drugs.

[00:00:33:10 – 00:00:39:13] Selling, taking, getting to a point where I didn’t no longer look at myself as a criminal. I looked at myself as a businessman.

[00:00:42:17 – 00:00:48:22] When did your addiction begin for you? It by a sort of age of 13 was when I first tried to hack it.

[00:00:50:19 – 00:00:56:19] I got a phone call from my mum’s neighbour. He said, “Jeff, your mum’s house is being raided.”

[00:00:59:06 – 00:01:04:06] I just remember sitting in the car thinking, “Shit, I could be going away for 10 plus years now.”

[00:01:05:24 – 00:01:10:03] That was like the start of the next chapter, the next part of my life.

[00:01:10:03 – 00:01:16:17] Elliot Ward, what? Addiction specialist, you’ve become a happy queen with me.

[00:01:18:17 – 00:02:19:09] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Coming Clean With Me. My name is Elliot Ward, addiction specialist. And today’s guest has overcome addictions. Addictions to the packet, to food and alcohol. Losing over half his body weight, 222 kilos to 114 kilos. Once lost in addiction, chaos and criminal activities, he climbed back through discipline, faith and deep inner work, becoming a present father, a community leader and founder of the Actualization Project, helping youths reclaim their life, resilience and purpose. Please welcome Geoff Charles. How are you doing, Geoff? I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Elliot. It’s a pleasure, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you for coming here, Geoff. Thanks for having me. Let’s kick off. Tell me a little bit about how you were brought up, where you were born, siblings, background, that kind of thing.

[00:02:20:15 – 00:02:38:00] Yeah, so I guess quite an ordinary upbringing in some aspects in today’s society, single parent household, born in Harold Wood Hospital, lived in Ilford, Dagnam.

[00:02:39:09 – 00:02:41:18] My mum, I’ve got a twin brother, got a little sister.

[00:02:43:05 – 00:02:57:13] Yeah, just a sort of a very loving home. My mum was amazing, absolutely incredible. Brought us up from the age of five on our own, single-handedly, very little input from my dad.

[00:03:00:02 – 00:03:10:10] Yeah, spent a lot of time in and around the outer, out of sort of East London outskirts, eventually moving to sort of Royal Essex near Burnham-on-Crouch,

[00:03:12:00 – 00:03:17:04] and sort of, that was probably aged around eight, I think, roughly.

[00:03:18:23 – 00:03:40:20] Yeah, and just sort of relatively the earlier sort of childhood. There was a lot of chaos around at the time when my mum was with my dad, and that was sort of one of the reasons why my mum eventually made the decision to leave, and do it on her own, so she could give us a level of stability that we didn’t have previously.

[00:03:42:17 – 00:03:52:06] And from there, I guess, things started to sort of unravel for me personally.

[00:03:54:22 – 00:04:43:15] I’d say when I got to probably aged 11, and it’s when I started noticing things, I guess, because up until then we’re quite innocent, aren’t we? We don’t really pay that much attention to the finer detail, and I think it wasn’t until I got into sort of secondary school year seven when I started realising things, how things were different for us compared to my peers and other friends. And I guess that was the start of the journey, I guess, too, which you alluded to earlier, the addiction and the problems that I sort of ended up facing. What was school like for you? Did you want to achieve it? Did you mess around?

[00:04:45:05 – 00:04:55:03] I was always told by my teachers in primary school and secondary school that I’ve got so much potential if I were just to apply that potential.

[00:04:56:06 – 00:05:23:05] So I was diagnosed with ADHD relatively quite at a young age, end of year six. What age is that for me? I don’t know. So it’s at 10. OK. Yeah. And I think back then, so, you know, 24 years ago, I feel really old saying that, 24 years ago, ADHD wasn’t as mainstream as it is now.

[00:05:24:05 – 00:05:37:13] The information available, the knowledge was nowhere near what it is now. And so when I got that diagnosis, I was very much treated almost like an alien.

[00:05:38:13 – 00:05:52:22] So, for instance, I was encouraged to sit in a hula hoop in school so that I wouldn’t fidget and I wouldn’t move outside the hula hoop and disturb other students. And, you know, this hula hoop became this sort of safe space for me, but at the same time, in a way, it became like a fortress.

[00:05:54:10 – 00:06:01:19] I felt very segregated. And I guess that feeling of feeling segregated and feeling different carried on then into secondary school.

[00:06:04:03 – 00:06:08:21] And one thing that come up for me a lot was I had a problem with authority.

[00:06:11:06 – 00:06:26:21] And I think that came from the lack of having a present dad, that father figure, positive man, a wrong order in my life, that when authority tried to come down on me, I would often reject it and, you know, protest.

[00:06:28:10 – 00:06:33:05] And so that then carried on into secondary school.

[00:06:34:19 – 00:06:57:11] And another thing I had a problem with was being in justice and bullies. So that was another thing that I was sort of battling with. I didn’t like people taking advantage of people. I didn’t like people, bullying people, would often get in trouble for sticking up for people, some people I don’t even know or getting myself involved in stuff that didn’t concern me because of this sense of injustice.

[00:07:00:24 – 00:07:06:16] And I think by the middle of year eight, so I would have then been 12,

[00:07:09:19 – 00:07:12:20] I essentially was removed from school permanently.

[00:07:15:16 – 00:08:57:17] And back then there was a program, I guess it was called Work Without Ate Learning. So what that meant was is that I had to find an employer that would employ me at that age, nonpaid, and I would work four days a week and then I was allowed to go into school on a Friday for two hours, two to three hours in a segregated building, we called it the house. And that’s where we done some curriculum and academia. So then I could then achieve basic GCSEs. That very quickly faded out by uni and sort of very rarely went in on the Fridays. But yeah, so school didn’t last very long in terms of secondary school anyway. It says, just reading you through my notes, in terms of your teenage years, you felt the pressure to live up to a criminal persona, to be the tough guy, the street guy. Explain to me what you mean by that. So what happened was when I got into secondary school, I started recognising things, started seeing things, and a realisation, I guess, happened where I realised that we didn’t have a lot at home. And it became more prominent then, in the sense that I had friends that would have the latest trainers, they’d go on holiday, they’d always have money in their pocket, etc, etc. That became a bit of a problem for me. I became quite resentful, not at the people, but at that fact. And with that resentment there came anger and I guess an appetite for wanting more. And in doing so, I looked at different ways of achieving, you know, getting those things.

[00:09:00:05 – 00:09:19:14] And essentially when I did get removed from school, I started working, building site, labour. And of course in that environment at a young age, 12, 13, I’m working with older guys in their 30s, their 40s, their 50s. Some of these guys are criminals themselves.

[00:09:20:14 – 00:09:49:10] And of course, being a young man, not having that father figure, I was craving that. I wanted that positive male role model. I wanted somebody that I could look up to, someone that would take me under their wing, you know, look after me so to speak. So that’s what I did. I found people that would, you know, in a sense look after me in their own little way they did. But at the same time then I was exposed to criminality. I was exposed to a sort of a different way of being.

[00:09:51:15 – 00:09:51:24] Such as?

[00:09:54:01 – 00:10:14:04] I guess, the way I was at that age, I was quite impressionable. And I was exposed to, you know, violence and criminality in selling drugs or stealing cars.

[00:10:15:05 – 00:10:35:04] So I looked up to these guys, I thought they were amazing, great men. And in their own way, I’m not going to take that away from them, in their own way, they had things about them that were admirable. You know, they did. They had a level of resilience, a level of honour amongst thieves, so to speak.

[00:10:36:05 – 00:10:46:12] And I guess it was then for me, I was like, well, I want to be like these guys, you know, I want to get to the level that they’re at, I want to become like them.

[00:10:48:10 – 00:11:02:04] And then with that, they became this sort of pull and push of characters within myself. So the real me, the true me, and then this version of me that I wanted to become based on those that surrounded me and that I looked up to.

[00:11:03:21 – 00:11:20:22] And that wasn’t a healthy way to be, I guess, because, you know, getting involved in that criminality. Or did you actually have to get involved doing it? Just hypothetically?

[00:11:22:05 – 00:11:43:04] So hypothetically speaking, you know, very at the beginning, I guess it was low level sort of stuff. It was diggers and plant, you know, stealing diggers and plant, you know, repurposing them, stealing them on.

[00:11:44:05 – 00:12:00:04] And it sort of then things sort of went up a few levels, like getting more involved with larger thefts of perhaps articulated lorries that controlled, that contained large amounts of alcohol.

[00:12:01:05 – 00:12:11:20] And then it really then, I guess in and amongst that, the whole time there was an element of drugs,

[00:12:12:22 – 00:12:23:04] whatever it be, packet or cannabis, selling, doing, taking.

[00:12:24:04 – 00:12:29:01] So that was always that was that element of that was always weaved in for that criminality.

[00:12:32:18 – 00:12:37:04] And it was an easy way to make money. It was an easy way to make money.

[00:12:40:09 – 00:13:00:19] But it came at a cost. It came at a cost that I didn’t realize at the time. And so then this persona, this person that you sort of, I was slowly becoming this sort of person who believed that to be successful, I had to be feared, I had to be respected, I had to be violent,

[00:13:03:12 – 00:13:08:23] to sort of make decisions about fearing the consequences of those decisions.

[00:13:10:04 – 00:13:11:01] Such as?

[00:13:13:08 – 00:13:24:23] You know, if someone perhaps owed money, you know, you’d go to extreme measures to get that money back for acts of violence, for acts of fear and threatening people.

[00:13:27:19 – 00:13:50:19] You know, you sort of wanted it to be known as that person that would get things done. And if they said something, they’d follow through with action, you know, but whilst all of this was going on and again, this spanned a long time. This went on for 10 years, started off a very low level of criminality.

[00:13:52:11 – 00:14:07:01] As you can imagine, the usual sort of stuff in pubs and bits and pieces. And ended up sort of then getting to a point where I didn’t no longer look at myself as a criminal, as a drug dealer. I looked at myself as a businessman.

[00:14:08:10 – 00:14:43:04] As you do, you sort of think, I’m not a drug dealer. And you try and justify your actions by giving yourself a different title or perhaps investing into businesses or site and businesses to legitimize the money that you’ve got and to make yourself feel better, essentially. And that’s what I did eventually, you know, I got to a certain level where I was, you know, I was no longer one of the sort of low level lads in pubs and bars and clubs or out on the street. I was sort of moving up higher in the food chain, I guess.

[00:14:44:04 – 00:15:07:04] And so then, you know, but whilst all of this time over this 10 year period, this this this everything that I was doing played played heavily on me because I knew what I was doing was immoral. It was unethical. It was illegal. And every single day there was this battle between, you know, my conscience. You know, I know what I’m doing is wrong, but yet I still carry on doing it.

[00:15:08:04 – 00:15:30:22] Devil on one shoulder, angel on the other. No, I shouldn’t do that. But go on, just do it. Exactly. Yeah. And obviously with that, when you’ve got that them two things go in each other, it’s creates a lot of psychological tension because again, he’s that that sort of you’ve got your true self and your ideal self. And I just I remember every single day.

[00:15:33:15 – 00:15:48:02] I’ll be living like in a state of heightened awareness and anxiety. And it was home. I didn’t know it. I just felt very hyper vigilant, very alert and aware that any moment the ground beneath my feet could just fall away.

[00:15:49:18 – 00:15:52:07] And that was a nice way to live. You know.

[00:15:56:13 – 00:16:22:04] Yeah, it was it was difficult because, you know, I’d wake up every day and I’d thank I’d thank God. I thank you for this day and please let me help me get through this day. And at the end of the day, I’ll be like, you know, thank you again for helping me survive another day because that was the reality of it. If it wasn’t, if it weren’t getting killed, it would be getting arrested, losing my freedom, losing my liberty.

[00:16:23:04 – 00:16:39:01] Then obviously family come into it, you know, then you start worrying about, you know, because by by by sort of towards the end of that that criminality, I was a dad. I had one son and my then partner was pregnant with my second son.

[00:16:40:06 – 00:16:57:01] And so I was in this predicament of, you know, if I carry on doing what I’m doing, I’ll potentially going to be living my children in a position, the same position that I was in. I was in without an active father and they then, you know, the cycle doesn’t break.

[00:16:58:17 – 00:17:20:04] Even I knew these facts, I still didn’t stop. And I think I think that’s the thing as well with that lifestyle and all that whole area of criminality is that I think it can be harder to stop being involved in that criminality than it can be to stop actually doing the drug that you might be taking.

[00:17:21:04 – 00:17:37:04] Because that then becomes sort of an addiction in itself, you know, the highs and lows of that lifestyle, you know, the the fast pace, the quick money, the reputation, the glamour.

[00:17:38:04 – 00:18:21:04] But then what you don’t see, even if the surface is that is the dark side of that, the impact that you have on on people around you, your own family, people that perhaps that you sell to. When did your addiction begin for you? So I guess it from a very young age, I remember in in year seven, like within the first, which is age 11. I remember in year seven, being at the bus stop and like one of the it was an older lad there who would get on the same bus and he would smoke in the telephone box.

[00:18:22:04 – 00:18:48:23] And I remember smoking a joint then. And then I started sort of smoking cannabis at that age, on and off. And then by a sort of age, I’d say 13 was when I first tried cocaine packet.

[00:18:50:21 – 00:19:39:10] And at that point, it was like it wasn’t it was it was something because I was so young. Hold on, hold on. Thirteen. How did that come about? It was a friend, older, older friend, again, on on the building site. And it was just it was something that was it was sort of being passed around. And it was like, do you want a bump? And I just thought, yeah, I’ll try it. You know, not really knowing. And I remember doing it. I was just like, it felt it felt really weird. And strangely enough, at that age, at that time, it wasn’t it was it didn’t grab a hold of me then. It didn’t because it was like then from the age of 13 till I was like 17, it was sort of one of those things where I could take it or leave it.

[00:19:40:24 – 00:19:51:04] I guess it was like the the the addiction took hold as when as I got older and sort of was involved, you know, it was always around me.

[00:19:54:03 – 00:20:01:24] You know, it was literally always around me. There was ways it was always available. So you were in that world. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:20:03:05 – 00:20:20:02] And, you know, it become a norm. It was it was it become a social norm, not just for myself, but my my circle, my social circle, my friends. For instance, you know, go and pick up on a Thursday, might go and pick up a kilo and then you break that down.

[00:20:22:01 – 00:20:30:04] And then what I do is I break it all down and then I might take out half ounce for me. You know, and then that would be my bit.

[00:20:31:04 – 00:20:39:19] And so I always knew I had that there on tap to use as and when I wanted to.

[00:20:41:23 – 00:20:45:05] And and that’s the thing. It’s like it happened very gradually,

[00:20:46:16 – 00:21:00:13] slowly crept up and it would become very like the day would start off. We’d get up and go for breakfast. We go to the gym. Then we might have lunch. And then after lunch, that’d be it.

[00:21:01:15 – 00:21:37:04] Little bump, little lion. Then that would carry on. Throughout the day into into into the night. And one thing that I was always always good at was I wasn’t sort of one very, very rarely once in a blue moon. I wouldn’t go through the night. I wouldn’t do like an all night. I would stop. I’d be two, three in the morning, but I would always sleep because I knew the next day I had to be active. But then it became very normalised and it was just something that was done. It was like, read you for a bottle of water.

[00:21:38:04 – 00:21:48:21] And yeah, it was insidious. It just it just not just my own life, but my friends circle that I was in.

[00:21:49:22 – 00:22:04:04] It sort of infiltrated everybody’s life very gradually. And I’ve lost friends through the packet, you know, through suicide, through.

[00:22:05:04 – 00:22:20:04] A car accident when they’re on their way to pick up, you know, so it’s been a lot of loss around it as well. What was going on emotionally at that time when you first when you were using it and what was going on in your life emotionally?

[00:22:21:04 – 00:22:34:22] If I’m honest, I think at that stage in my life, I couldn’t have named the emotions that I was feeling and what I felt and what I thought.

[00:22:36:04 – 00:22:57:13] I was so wrapped up in that life. And I wasn’t aware of anything other than I knew I needed to carry on doing what I was doing. And I was sort of the business that I had I built from scratch. So it was like my baby and that that that essentially up at that first over everything.

[00:23:00:10 – 00:23:07:04] But if I look back now and I reflect and I think about the emotions I was feeling, I think I was feeling extremely insecure,

[00:23:08:04 – 00:23:22:17] anxious, scared, very lost. I didn’t I didn’t know where I was going. I didn’t know what tomorrow would bring.

[00:23:25:03 – 00:23:54:04] I was just living moment to moment, you know, day to day. And I think again, it’s that that persona of this this man that I thought I should be, this sort of alpha male, you know, flash, violent, angry that I’d become pushed me so much further away from the man that I knew I could be.

[00:23:55:04 – 00:24:03:19] And even at that stage for all of the addiction and for the chaos, for the violence, the man that I could be, there was glimpses of him.

[00:24:05:06 – 00:24:29:16] There was glimpses in my in my in my core. I was still a good person, but I was just doing shit things. Tell me about your journey with the packet, then how that escalated, where it got to with alcohol without alcohol. Tell me about that journey. So when I when I when I first started using the packet regularly, the first couple of years, I didn’t I didn’t really drink with it.

[00:24:30:16 – 00:24:45:21] And I always remember going out, being with a group of friends and bearing in mind, I must be like, I’m not 16 at this point. And they were in their 30s and 40s. And I had a fake ID. So I used to use that to get into clubs or bars.

[00:24:48:08 – 00:24:57:00] And one of my really, really close friends, look, he knew that I didn’t really drink, he knew.

[00:24:58:10 – 00:25:25:04] But then his friends would be like, why are you not why are you not drinking? Why are you not drinking? I don’t really like it. I don’t want to drink. I just like just doing just doing the packet and that’s me. I’m sweet. And I was fine doing that. And that was for the first couple of years. And then eventually I gave into the alcohol and it became one of those things of like one without the other. You can’t have a drink without a packet. You can’t have a packet about drink. It’s like bread and butter. It had to be together.

[00:25:26:04 – 00:25:40:16] And again, that escalated and escalated where I was using pretty much every day to the point where I remember like laying in bed.

[00:25:42:07 – 00:26:05:04] And I had a bed with like a wood surrounding base. And I remember sort of at this point, I must be like 30 stone and I’d lean over and on the wood, I’d have a few lines of activity. And I’d just lean over and just sniff and then lay back down. Wow. Not even moving. No. No. Do you think you are still stuck in the hula hoop from school?

[00:26:07:09 – 00:26:22:04] I think that hula hoop. Yeah, I think that that that sort of representation of that that sort of that circle of of being most definitely, you know, I was I was stuck in this regimented.

[00:26:23:04 – 00:26:26:08] Obsession of being this this person.

[00:26:30:11 – 00:26:34:07] And using to numb what was really going on for me.

[00:26:36:13 – 00:26:40:04] And at your worst, what did your addiction look like? What did your day look like?

[00:26:41:04 – 00:26:47:15] You know, not getting out of bed till late morning.

[00:26:49:16 – 00:26:51:07] You know, not looking after myself.

[00:26:52:24 – 00:27:11:01] And, you know, with with the packet, the thing is, it’s like you’ve never given yourself a chance to catch up. So you’ll never use sort of your brain is completely depleted of any dopamine. So you’re just sort of you’re an autopilot almost. And then your body, you end up eating crap food.

[00:27:12:08 – 00:27:17:01] You know, it’s that vicious circle. It’s like you’re never giving yourself a chance to breathe.

[00:27:20:23 – 00:28:07:05] And, you know, you sort of get through as much as you could of the day until you then do your first line or your first bump. And then that whole vicious cycle starts again. And. I just remember multiple occasions, you know, I’m laying there and I’m thinking, if I carry on like this, I’m just going to I’m going to get over. There’s no way I can carry on eating what I eat, drinking what I drink, sniffing what I’m sniffing. Being 30 on stone. What sort of quantity were you sniffing about this point and how frequently? So I was never a morning sniffer. It would always be after lunch. It was like an unwritten rule that I had. It was always after lunch.

[00:28:09:22 – 00:28:10:16] And it would be.

[00:28:12:07 – 00:28:15:00] Every 20 minutes, a lion, a bump.

[00:28:19:20 – 00:28:23:19] Yeah. And I’d say the quantity because I was always a group of people as well.

[00:28:26:01 – 00:28:33:18] The quantity of the quantity. It could vary, you know, it could vary from a Henry to three point five grand to seven grand a day.

[00:28:34:18 – 00:28:36:13] Because you’re sharing it is what you understand.

[00:28:37:16 – 00:28:42:08] And sometimes it could be more than that, depending on what we was doing.

[00:28:44:10 – 00:28:50:10] What made you what made you decide to stop was legal trouble? Was it conscience? What was that?

[00:28:51:12 – 00:28:51:19] So.

[00:28:54:13 – 00:29:01:24] There was many moments throughout my life, throughout that period of my life, there were like signs.

[00:29:03:18 – 00:29:07:16] There were moments, they were like they were like moments where I could have walked away, but I didn’t.

[00:29:09:12 – 00:29:16:10] And those moments would come and then they’d go. I didn’t walk away. And then there was this then there was one moment.

[00:29:18:19 – 00:29:20:04] And I was sitting in my car.

[00:29:21:04 – 00:29:24:18] And I didn’t long just.

[00:29:26:09 – 00:29:27:00] Picked up.

[00:29:28:15 – 00:29:31:09] And it was a Thursday. I got a phone call from.

[00:29:32:24 – 00:29:33:06] My.

[00:29:34:06 – 00:29:34:24] Mum’s neighbour.

[00:29:36:12 – 00:29:37:09] And he said.

[00:29:38:17 – 00:29:51:10] Jeff, your mum’s house is being raided. And it’s the first time that I’ve ever been raided. I just remember coming with a phone, thinking, shit, they’ve got me.

[00:29:52:21 – 00:30:02:00] And I was so I always prided myself in how careful I was. You know, my in that business, you can’t be making enemies.

[00:30:03:01 – 00:30:18:22] You have to make more friends than you do enemies because those enemies are just going to. You know, they could just grass you up. You know, it’s the quickest way to get rid of someone. So the more allies you had, the more friends you had, you know, keep the equilibrium, keep it level.

[00:30:21:04 – 00:30:33:16] And I was quite under the radar as well. And I always I thought I’ve always covered all bases. You know, I’m careful. And yes, I my mum’s got raided and I just remember coming to the phone and in that moment.

[00:30:35:21 – 00:30:43:08] My ex then was seven months pregnant with my second son. I just remember sitting in the car thinking shit.

[00:30:45:21 – 00:31:02:16] I could be going away for 10 plus years now. And I’m going to be leaving my kids in a position where they could end up following a Muffet steps because I’m not around to guide them. I’m there to teach them. I’m there to help them.

[00:31:03:22 – 00:31:08:03] And it was from that moment that one phone call and that one moment I decided enough is enough. I stop him.

[00:31:10:01 – 00:31:24:18] And I then spent like a week in different places, staying in hotels because I do in my head, I thought, OK, the police raided my mum’s. I didn’t find anything. I thought, you know, they’re just looking for me now.

[00:31:28:09 – 00:31:39:12] And so I completely come away from any any any investments that I had, any sort of legitimate businesses, any investments I sort of over the space of a week. I got rid of everything. I sold everything.

[00:31:41:23 – 00:31:54:00] And the idea that, you know, any money I collected in that I had would then be put away whilst I was in prison so that my kids and my then partner could survive, essentially.

[00:31:56:03 – 00:31:59:12] And then that never came. You know, you know, nothing ever come of that.

[00:32:01:03 – 00:32:19:07] I managed to walk away. And I guess that chapter of that then my life, then that’s where it ended. You know, the criminality. And you carried on using. Yeah. What was your lowest point with your using?

[00:32:22:01 – 00:32:26:04] I would say it would have been after the breakdown of my family.

[00:32:33:09 – 00:32:35:09] So at this point.

[00:32:39:21 – 00:32:43:01] The breakdown started probably in late 2017.

[00:32:44:19 – 00:32:54:21] And at this point, I was a father of three. And I left my family home and had nothing. And I was a father of three. And I left my family home and had nothing. I had nothing.

[00:32:56:20 – 00:33:00:22] So I was living in a spare room of one of my best friend’s house is Chris.

[00:33:03:10 – 00:33:16:20] And I had nothing. I literally had nothing. I had to start again. I had to come to terms with the fact that I am going to be a part time dad, which was something I never wanted.

[00:33:19:10 – 00:33:24:16] And that caused me to be a part time dad. And I had to come to terms with the fact that I am going to be a part time dad, which was something I never wanted. And that caused me to spiral massively. I felt like a failure. I felt ashamed.

[00:33:28:04 – 00:33:30:01] Yeah, I was extremely lost and low.

[00:33:31:21 – 00:33:44:19] And in reality at this point, after I left the criminality, I went into the gas industry. So at this point, I’d been in the gas industry then for like four or five years.

[00:33:46:21 – 00:33:48:13] And I was doing well in terms of career.

[00:33:51:22 – 00:33:55:16] So I’m paper, you know, I’ve got three beautiful children, careers goods.

[00:33:57:20 – 00:34:03:19] But I was, you know, family had broken down. I was in my mates spare room and I had nothing.

[00:34:07:08 – 00:34:19:14] And that then become, you know, very, very long period of depression, suicidal ideation.

[00:34:21:12 – 00:34:33:14] And using, you know, and obviously using doing packet only perpetuates that mood and that, you know, cycle of fault.

[00:34:36:17 – 00:34:39:15] I guess.

[00:34:42:08 – 00:34:54:08] A little while after that, I moved, I managed to get a flat. And I was in this flat, you know, things were getting better, but I was still using.

[00:34:55:16 – 00:34:58:05] At this point, I was 34, 35 stone.

[00:35:00:12 – 00:35:24:22] Things had settled a little bit with my then ex and the contact of my kids was, you know, regular, stable, but I was still deeply, deeply unhappy, still carrying a lot. I was ashamed of myself, you know, a lot of that come from how I was physically how I looked. I was extremely overweight, didn’t look after myself, had no pride in how I looked.

[00:35:27:10 – 00:35:29:01] And was still using.

[00:35:30:11 – 00:35:33:01] And I think that I remember.

[00:35:35:22 – 00:35:46:08] Going to pick the kids up from school and I’d walk in and I was the biggest, the biggest guy, the biggest, the biggest guy. The fatest dad there. And I just remember just feeling so ashamed and just be like.

[00:35:48:14 – 00:36:00:14] My kids have got like the fast dad and eventually there’s going to get a point where as they get older, they could get bullied for having a fat overweight dad and just all of these thoughts going on in my head, all of this shame and guilt.

[00:36:01:24 – 00:36:02:24] And feeling like a failure.

[00:36:06:01 – 00:36:08:04] And there was a moment where I took the kids to a soft play.

[00:36:09:04 – 00:36:19:18] And I was a big guy, but I tried my best to be active and run around with them and stuff. I’m chasing a man, the soft play as you do, you know, sweating and huffing and puffing.

[00:36:21:05 – 00:36:27:06] I remember this young lad that sort of ended up joining, playing with my kids and he’s playing along like they do.

[00:36:29:00 – 00:36:47:07] And he said to me, he goes, he looked at me, he goes, wow, you’re so fat. And I felt of my kids and obviously, you know, he’s an innocent child, but they’ve got no filter of they say it is. And my oldest son looked at him and he said, my dad’s not fat. He’s just a giant.

[00:36:50:02 – 00:36:55:18] And in that moment, I was like, oh shit.

[00:36:57:08 – 00:37:01:21] My son is defending me. My son is defending me.

[00:37:04:04 – 00:37:19:06] And I just, I just, yeah, I just felt so ashamed, so angry of myself. And when we’re getting back to my flat, just crying and then they went home.

[00:37:20:24 – 00:37:26:12] And I just thought to myself, you know what, I can’t have this. They’re better off without me. That’s how I felt.

[00:37:29:06 – 00:37:33:16] And I remember getting some packing and I was sniffing and sniffing and.

[00:37:36:16 – 00:37:44:05] I just thought to myself, you know, that’s enough. That’s it. I’m done. I’m done with this. I’m done with feeling how I’m feeling.

[00:37:45:12 – 00:37:49:04] I’d convince myself that the kids would be better off without me. That’s you know, that’s where I got to.

[00:37:50:04 – 00:37:57:09] And I filmed like a series of videos, different videos, put out 14 in total.

[00:37:59:01 – 00:38:09:03] Video throughout their wedding, for when they pass the GCCs, for when they get their first boyfriend or girlfriend, for times when they’re feeling down, when they’re feeling low.

[00:38:10:24 – 00:38:22:12] That video of me, you know, just talking. One of the videos is ironically is like me saying to him, you know, through life, you’re going to get hurdles and you’re going to have obstacles. But you’ll get through it or jump over it. I’m giving him this encouragement.

[00:38:23:14 – 00:38:33:02] I’m filming these videos moments before I try to take my own life. I’m encouraging them to persevere and get through life. Ironic. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:38:35:04 – 00:38:37:13] So I’d say that was the lowest point.

[00:38:39:04 – 00:38:43:19] That I got to where I tried to take my own life and.

[00:38:45:14 – 00:38:46:13] What was the starting point?

[00:38:49:12 – 00:38:51:10] I think after after that event.

[00:38:55:22 – 00:38:58:03] I had a really sort of.

[00:39:00:03 – 00:39:01:08] Date moment of reflection.

[00:39:03:05 – 00:39:07:22] And introspection and looking back and thinking about all of the things that have happened to me.

[00:39:10:10 – 00:39:14:21] All of the events. One of the violence, the pain.

[00:39:16:13 – 00:39:18:24] That was inflicted on me and the eye inflicted on others.

[00:39:20:10 – 00:39:21:20] Moments where.

[00:39:25:12 – 00:39:27:18] Life could have gone a very different way for me.

[00:39:28:20 – 00:39:30:21] You know, and it hadn’t.

[00:39:32:08 – 00:39:34:13] And I said to myself, there has to be a reason for that.

[00:39:35:23 – 00:39:43:23] I’ve survived this attempt. I’ve survived everything that I’ve survived up until this point. And it has to be a reason for that.

[00:39:46:09 – 00:39:47:16] And that from that moment.

[00:39:49:17 – 00:39:57:20] That was like this, the start of the next chapter, the next part of my life where I took control back.

[00:40:02:04 – 00:40:04:04] And made the decision that.

[00:40:05:04 – 00:40:06:03] Tomorrow.

[00:40:08:01 – 00:40:13:05] I’m not going to. Drink that beer. I’m not going to sniff that lion.

[00:40:14:12 – 00:40:23:04] Then the next day I might say, I’m not going to. Drink that kind of coke. You know, so day by day, decision by decision.

[00:40:25:23 – 00:40:35:24] I was making the steps towards the man that I knew I could become. And the man I knew I was deep down.

[00:40:37:11 – 00:40:44:07] I didn’t know how I was going to get there, but I just knew day by day. What was your first sign of recovery?

[00:40:47:09 – 00:40:48:20] The power to say no.

[00:40:50:14 – 00:40:52:13] The first time I turned down.

[00:40:53:17 – 00:40:54:10] And invite out.

[00:40:57:08 – 00:41:28:18] That was like a really big moment. You know, it’s like because I always just suffer with that FOMO fear of missing out. And you know, when you got friends and bits and pieces that people are saying, oh, do you want to get a bit packet? Should we have a few? Should we get on it, mate? Yeah. Yeah. She had a cheeky one. Just a couple and then we called it a day, you know that. And I think the moment that I said no. That became it became addictive almost.

[00:41:30:20 – 00:41:38:17] Having that autonomy to say no, having the power, taking the control back from having something that had control over me for so long.

[00:41:39:19 – 00:41:44:00] Then for me to be able to take that control back and be the captain of the ship.

[00:41:46:19 – 00:41:47:06] That was.

[00:41:48:19 – 00:41:59:18] And it wasn’t like it wasn’t the entire thing. And it wasn’t and it wasn’t like it wasn’t neat and tidy. The journey. It wasn’t like a straight linear journey of like, you know, recovery.

[00:42:03:04 – 00:42:04:19] It wasn’t. It was messy.

[00:42:05:21 – 00:42:09:24] There was moments I fell down. There was moments I fell short.

[00:42:13:11 – 00:42:14:23] But they were moments.

[00:42:17:13 – 00:42:21:07] Moments in time. And that was that was the big thing for me. It was.

[00:42:23:04 – 00:42:25:06] Realizing that these moments don’t define.

[00:42:26:17 – 00:42:27:23] What tomorrow’s going to look like.

[00:42:29:01 – 00:42:32:20] Our past actions and things that I’ve done doesn’t define the person I am.

[00:42:35:06 – 00:42:37:14] That was when things really start to change.

[00:42:39:03 – 00:42:39:24] Good for you.

[00:42:41:07 – 00:43:15:07] I’m just going to change this up a little bit because I sent you an impulsivity test. I thought it’d be interesting to do an impulsivity test on you just for yourself and for people listening or watching. Let me just explain this. So with every one of my patients I run a whole series of psychological diagnostic tests ADHD impulsivity emotional dysregulation and then build a case history. Build a case history from that to understand the patient to understand their values their beliefs their experiences their upbringing.

[00:43:17:05 – 00:43:34:04] And from there build a whole case individually. So one of the components one of the small components is the impulsivity test. So I thought it’d be fun to send you the impulsivity test and then to diagnose you on the podcast.

[00:43:35:15 – 00:43:42:04] So your score was 62. And I have analyzed this for you. This sits in the average range.

[00:43:43:04 – 00:44:22:04] This means you’re not wildly impulsive overall but you’re also not especially restrained in terms of addiction and average score often shows someone who can think ahead but doesn’t doesn’t always do it consistently. It’s like you can see the future but you’re not always consistent in your actions to get to the future. You especially feel boredom or emotional discomfort and I think the emotion is comfort is interesting just reading you and with nasal ingestion of you know what this level of impulsiveness it lines up with binge style patterns which is really interesting based upon what you said long stretches of control followed by moments where urges override planning which is exactly what you’ve been talking about.

[00:44:32:19 – 00:45:02:19] And I did this before we went and before we discussed your attention is number nine. This is around the mid range. It suggests someone who can focus but is easily pulled off track when stress tired or overwhelmed in real life it shows up as living the thread of task drifting during conversation. And then you can see the mid range. It suggests someone who can focus but is easily pulled off track when stress tired or overwhelmed in real life it shows up as living the thread of task drifting during conversations or finding it hard to stay locked onto one thing for long with nasal ingestion of you know what it’s kind of like that cycle takes you back down that track.

[00:45:03:20 – 00:45:21:08] Your cognitive instability number six this slightly leans towards the lower side it means the mind is fairly steady doesn’t jump all over the place and your thoughts are slightly less spirally than they could be at that level but your thoughts are also unpredictable.

[00:45:23:08 – 00:45:41:19] And then your motor score which is fourteen is a high score pointing to more action driven impulsivity it means you act quickly sometimes before thinking and this looks like things on the spur of the moment you do things without much thought about them which is one of the massive traits of people who have an addiction.

[00:45:42:20 – 00:46:01:19] Your strongest behavior prediction is you have sudden urges to do something and you respond to them without that gap of or without thinking about that gap between should I and doing that gap is slightly missing it’s smaller.

[00:46:02:20 – 00:47:18:19] Self-control is 13 is on the higher side suggestion a good ability to plan which fits in with work Etc right anticipate consequences in terms of being sober calm states and you’ll be more responsible and measurable in your decisions and you’re also able to delay gratification that’s one of the huge components of using that it’s instant gratification I need this right now. And one of the coping strategies for dealing with you know you know what is to be able to delay gratification and that’s what you’re able to do cognitive complexity 12 this sits above average it reflects someone who makes nuances makes connections and can handle multiple streams of information in day to day life you slightly pretty switched on right looks good for problem solving strong. Reasoning and the ability to understand situations from different angles in addiction behavior higher complexity can sometimes mean overthink it that’s certainly you or rationalizing creating elaborate internal arguments to justify one more night I’ll just do it again just tonight.

[00:47:19:20 – 00:47:31:23] So overall this is what I’ve written the overall the total score and pattern shows someone who’s impulsiveness is mainly driven by behavioral impulse rather than emotional chaos.

[00:47:33:01 – 00:48:07:16] They can think rationally plan well but their action impulses and dips in perseverance it creates cracks so there’s cracks within that you have to focus concentrate on that. This combination is common in people who function at a high level in daily life yet struggle privately with nasal ingestion of you know what especially moments of emotional fatigue and reward seeking behavior how does that sound interesting yeah interesting a lot of that rings true yeah a lot of that rings true most definitely.

[00:48:08:20 – 00:48:14:19] Yeah insightful yeah and how do you stay sober today.

[00:48:15:20 – 00:48:18:07] You know I think.

[00:48:22:03 – 00:48:30:21] The main thing I always think about now is the consequences of that if I was to decide to to do packet Howard feel tomorrow. Howard feel tomorrow.

[00:48:32:04 – 00:48:43:01] The moment you sober up and that feeling and that place isn’t something that I never want to revisit and that really helps me to stay true to myself and.

[00:48:46:01 – 00:48:46:09] I think.

[00:48:47:20 – 00:48:52:11] The other thing is is you know is my purpose and what I’m doing.

[00:48:54:04 – 00:48:59:16] You know we’ve we’ve. My duty not just as as.

[00:49:02:20 – 00:49:18:00] Someone who’s working with individuals but as a father and as a partner that comes about everything else you know. Do you have a do you have a certain routine though to stay sober to stay clean there’s certain things you put in place certain things you do.

[00:49:19:00 – 00:49:19:10] I think.

[00:49:21:19 – 00:49:23:22] I don’t go out.

[00:49:25:16 – 00:49:30:21] Hardly ever now you know I would often I was I was quite social I’d always go out events etc but.

[00:49:32:04 – 00:49:45:07] Now is something that I don’t do it doesn’t interest me so I keep myself out of environments that may be perhaps triggering. But also prayer as well you know my faith is something that’s carried me through.

[00:49:46:24 – 00:49:52:13] All of this and has been a choir and card that I didn’t really realize that I had.

[00:49:54:15 – 00:50:01:03] That’s something that’s become a really prominent part of my life now so you know prayer meditation.

[00:50:02:20 – 00:50:06:06] Being grounded reflective processes journaling.

[00:50:07:14 – 00:50:11:20] Speaking you enjoy generally I do yeah yeah yeah I do.

[00:50:13:20 – 00:50:18:00] I journal I journal through voice I record myself talking.

[00:50:19:07 – 00:50:21:21] You go back and listen to. Yeah I do yeah yeah.

[00:50:23:02 – 00:50:34:13] I transcribe it once it’s been recorded and I could be in the car and I just press record and I have a moment and introspective full or feeling and I’ll and I’ll record it I’ll talk about it.

[00:50:36:17 – 00:50:45:12] And I think therapy as well as played a big part in it you know seeking therapy and doing that work as uncomfortable as that is and it can be.

[00:50:46:20 – 00:51:13:18] I think that’s played a massive role in my recovery and the success of my recovery and brotherhood as well being around like-minded individuals people that are on a similar path perhaps of recovery or self-improvement and having that level of self-awareness. If you if you could transport yourself back to when you first started using.

[00:51:15:02 – 00:51:17:21] What is the one golden nugget.

[00:51:19:04 – 00:51:20:19] That you would tell your younger self.

[00:51:29:03 – 00:51:29:14] Call.

[00:51:30:20 – 00:51:47:13] I probably start off by saying you know.

[00:51:51:06 – 00:51:52:08] Stronger than what you think.

[00:51:58:06 – 00:52:01:07] Yeah you’re strong on what you think and it you’ll be okay.

[00:52:06:20 – 00:52:08:01] Listen to that feeling.

[00:52:10:07 – 00:52:18:10] Because throughout my life I’ve had this feeling this there’s been something there and I’m not up until the last couple of years I’ve never really been able to name what that was.

[00:52:19:20 – 00:52:38:16] Something scratching at the surface I mean knocking at the door. It’s always been there always been there constantly something inside me saying this is more than this is more than this. There’s something else going on. You’re you know you can do better than this you’re better than this and I’d always try and shut up.

[00:52:42:20 – 00:52:51:18] It’s been a quiet strength that’s been in me throughout my life that’s somehow helped me bounce back from multiple things multiple times.

[00:52:53:24 – 00:53:01:02] And I would say to myself you need to listen to that and you need to hold on to it and you need to fan the flame you need to nurture it.

[00:53:04:10 – 00:53:35:11] And that’s what I would say to others as well is like if there is something inside you that’s telling you that what you’re doing is wrong and that you’re better than this or this quiet thing this resilience this strength that’s within you you need to listen to it because it’s there for a reason. And for me I’ve now later on discovered that it is me is my faith it is my you know my faith that has helped me get through all of this and helps me stay grounded.

[00:53:37:14 – 00:53:45:16] What do you think has been the most rewarding part of all of this for yourself coming out the other side?

[00:53:49:11 – 00:54:15:15] I think first and foremost is obviously that my my my oldest my two oldest sons they’re eleven and twelve they’ve they’ve been able to see me go through this transformation and they remember me what I was like before and they see me how I am now. And for me that’s been a beautiful thing you know doing things with the kids that I couldn’t do before going to a theme park going on a roller coaster.

[00:54:16:20 – 00:54:18:01] Being active.

[00:54:21:05 – 00:54:43:07] I think that’s that first and foremost is that is that is the biggest reward and then I guess helping others you know using my testimony and my experience and things I’ve been through and helping others for perhaps the facing that are similar.

[00:54:45:20 – 00:54:53:00] But that’s the biggest is that one of the biggest takeaways is that this this this desire to serve others now and help others.

[00:54:54:19 – 00:55:43:14] I think I see a lot with people who overcome addiction and it’s a commendable thing it really is. I think as long as it’s channeled in the right way. I think there’s a lot of people who channel it in an incorrect way because they did it for them and they want to share that with somebody else but that was their journey and they don’t necessarily have the skills that for others journeys but I think it’s a really commendable thing that people do. What would be your final message to someone who’s wants to stop hasn’t yet been able to has so many seeds of self doubt in themselves. Maybe they’re overweight like you were once maybe they’re stuck in that right. Maybe they lost a parent like we both did. You know I don’t know what their background is right now but what’s the one thing you’d say to them just to sum up and finalize today.

[00:55:47:04 – 00:55:54:12] I’d use an analogy and I’d say to them you need to think yourself as a as a potato.

[00:55:56:11 – 00:56:10:01] If you think of a potato it’s a very basic root vegetable but it’s a hardy root vegetable and regardless of the environment you find a potato in can be the coldest darkest cupboard a dampest seller.

[00:56:12:09 – 00:56:22:03] As long as there’s a sliver of light that potato will strive and will grow will shoot a sprout towards that light and grow.

[00:56:24:11 – 00:56:36:05] So we are very much like potatoes in the sense that regardless of the environment that we’re in as long as we can see the smallest sliver of light and that could look like family.

[00:56:37:06 – 00:57:01:07] It could look like friends you know it could look like going to the gym could look like faith community wherever it may be find that light and grow your sprout because we are able to do it. We are very good. I think I’d be a there’s a King Edward potatoes. Yeah I think I’ll just be a king of it.

[00:57:02:21 – 00:57:08:21] Jeff Charles thank you for coming clean with me and I appreciate your time. Thanks your time. Thank you.