Click Play Button Above To View Video
00:00:06:25 – 00:00:27:19
Elliott Wald
Hello, my name is Elliot Wald, addiction expert, and welcome to Come and Clean with Me and in the studio joining me today are Debs Mason and Katrina Roberts. Now, let me just give you a little context of Deb and Katrina, because I had a client of mine coming on one of my podcasts quite a while back.
00:00:27:19 – 00:00:45:19
Elliott Wald
His name is Dan Mason. So let me give you a little bit of context about Dan. Dan was a heating engineer, and he developed a habit over multiple years. And you’ll be able to go back and listen to the podcast, because I’m going to put it out on this platform. But basically he got to a point where he was using up to 65 tickets a week.
00:00:45:21 – 00:01:16:19
Elliott Wald
He had 1,000 pound a week cocaine habit, right? Was 1,000 pound a week he spent on the packet and he tried various methods of trying to stop. He’d been to rehab, but didn’t successfully getting through the door because it wasn’t fit for him. He tried meetings. It wasn’t for him, and basically he came to see me as 165 days ago and Dan’s 165 days clean, and I thought would make a great angle and a different context for your viewers to actually speak and talk to Dan’s mom and Dan sister.
00:01:16:26 – 00:01:31:15
Elliott Wald
So I’ve got him in the studio today and so awesome. Some questions to understand what it’s like from their perspective. So Debbie and cool Katrina. There we go. Getting there right now. welcome. Thank you for coming in today. How you guys doing?
00:01:31:20 – 00:01:34:00
Katrina Roberts
Okay. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
00:01:34:02 – 00:01:52:09
Elliott Wald
Oh, it’s my pleasure. So let’s just dive straight in. Right. So, you know, it’s an interesting aspect, being a mom and a sister of someone who has an addiction, you know, and, you know, we take you right back to that day when you first started to realize, how did you first know Dan had a problem?
00:01:52:11 – 00:02:08:19
Debs Mason
I suppose with me, I was very naive and I didn’t know it for a long time. and obviously it had been going on for many years before I became aware of how bad the problem was. I don’t know. You probably knew more than what I did.
00:02:08:21 – 00:02:18:03
Katrina Roberts
I think for me, initially when Dan went to, I bother with some friends of his, he was it was a teenager, I think.
00:02:18:06 – 00:02:19:14
Elliott Wald
I’m, How old do you think that was?
00:02:19:14 – 00:02:49:00
Katrina Roberts
I think probably about 18, 19. And I knew that he had dabbled at that point. And I was thinking, oh, no. you know, everyone goes to I be the there’s that stereotype of people having to, you know, it’s only pressure. so when he came back, he told me something that he got up to over there, and I just thought, you know, from there, it’s it could be downhill.
00:02:49:02 – 00:03:02:14
Katrina Roberts
but he was never he was always really sensible about the two of us growing up. I was probably more of the rebel from, like, 14, 15. Right. And he was really sensible. Workaholic.
00:03:02:16 – 00:03:03:08
Elliott Wald
you older?
00:03:03:08 – 00:03:28:08
Katrina Roberts
Younger than. I’m older than. I’m three and a half years older than. Okay. And I think I never saw it coming with him. Never saw it come in until he was about 21. Right. And, I was living away at the time. And when I came back, there was, there was a night that we went out together in an episode, and I thought I still didn’t even realize then that.
00:03:28:10 – 00:03:29:02
Elliott Wald
He was using.
00:03:29:02 – 00:03:37:11
Katrina Roberts
That he was using, I thought there was a lot of mental health, but I didn’t really understand that there was a problem with drugs at that point.
00:03:37:17 – 00:03:45:00
Elliott Wald
But but, you know, you’re the same sort of age bracket as Dan’s. Only three years between you. Yeah. Whereas your mom’s an older generation. No disrespect.
00:03:45:04 – 00:03:46:04
Katrina Roberts
No, no, no, it’s fine.
00:03:46:08 – 00:03:51:20
Elliott Wald
Which means that you are around the signs of seeing people use a lot more. Right? Deb? Katrina. Sorry.
00:03:51:20 – 00:04:03:28
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, absolutely. I knew the signs, but, at that point in my life, I had moved away to Scotland. so I wasn’t seeing him as often to understand.
00:04:04:00 – 00:04:06:29
Debs Mason
Well, we just thought he had a mental breakdown.
00:04:07:01 – 00:04:07:24
Elliott Wald
Is that what you. So.
00:04:07:24 – 00:04:08:19
Debs Mason
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:08:21 – 00:04:10:21
Elliott Wald
I want to call you. Mama says it’s going to be easy.
00:04:10:21 – 00:04:18:23
Debs Mason
Yeah? Yeah. No, we just thought it her, you know, he was going through, one hell of a crisis. And then, we actually got the mental health team involved.
00:04:18:26 – 00:04:23:28
Elliott Wald
That. That was your first, you know, awakening, if you like, not drugs.
00:04:24:00 – 00:04:32:16
Debs Mason
Then I was still very naive. You know, I wasn’t brought up with it, wasn’t brought up around it and didn’t know about it, you know, so I, we we just put it down to mental health.
00:04:32:16 – 00:04:39:02
Elliott Wald
And to put this in context, I know where you live. Just share with the listeners where you know where your house number, but where you live.
00:04:39:04 – 00:04:44:18
Debs Mason
We live on a small island, West Mersea. We live, Mercy Island. So it’s just a small, small community.
00:04:44:18 – 00:04:46:03
Elliott Wald
So it’s very cliquey, right? Yeah.
00:04:46:04 – 00:04:50:19
Katrina Roberts
Very cliquey. Essex community. Everybody knows your business. Yeah. Right.
00:04:50:21 – 00:04:52:05
Debs Mason
Yeah. Most of us have.
00:04:52:07 – 00:04:53:12
Katrina Roberts
Something to say.
00:04:53:19 – 00:04:53:25
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:04:53:26 – 00:05:09:13
Elliott Wald
So I’m just wondering, is this, like going out with your brother just on those rare occasions that you did come back and you, you could see that he’d been using, did you think? Oh, well, it’s just a social thing. He’s just doing it with everybody else. How did you think it wasn’t a problem or how did you. How did you look at that?
00:05:09:16 – 00:05:28:06
Katrina Roberts
no, because it was only one occasion that we had gone out that that at that point when I had come back from Scotland, we were going to a nightclub together when he was 21 and we were in the queue for it, and all of a sudden he just was becoming very anxious, and walked away and he walked for miles.
00:05:28:06 – 00:05:32:23
Katrina Roberts
And I had to call my mum to come in and help because he ran over.
00:05:32:23 – 00:05:33:06
Debs Mason
A building.
00:05:33:06 – 00:05:47:06
Katrina Roberts
Site. He went over to a building site. He was acting really odd, right? I didn’t really know what was going on, but I did think, oh, maybe he’d taken a pill or something like that. And he’s okay, you know, coming up, coming up, that.
00:05:47:11 – 00:05:54:21
Elliott Wald
Oh, you sound like, you know, you’re talking about. Well, okay, listen, I know he’s a judge.
00:05:54:24 – 00:05:58:10
Katrina Roberts
so. Yeah, I think that, you’ve thrown me now,
00:05:58:13 – 00:06:04:16
Elliott Wald
I like to do that. I like to put a spanner in the works. This is about being honest, you know? Go on.
00:06:04:18 – 00:06:24:00
Katrina Roberts
that that’s what I thought in my head initially, that he was maybe coming up from a, pale. Yeah. he was struggling a little bit. Yeah. Or was becoming really, really anxious and agitated. Didn’t really know what to do with that sort of behavior because, well, we didn’t. I was on my own with him, and he was.
00:06:24:03 – 00:06:45:08
Elliott Wald
Let’s fast forward a little bit. So now you get to this point where you recognize that Dan has this, this, this challenge, this issue, this addiction, you know, what was it for you, mum, that opened up your eyes to realize that, wow, my son does have an addiction. I’m going to call it the packet because the social service and social media streams that don’t let you use the word.
00:06:45:10 – 00:06:46:00
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:06:46:03 – 00:06:50:23
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Right. So. So what was it opened your eyes up to realize that you had a problem with the packet?
00:06:50:24 – 00:06:59:16
Debs Mason
God, I didn’t really, really, see it until he bought his second house and that was being done.
00:06:59:19 – 00:07:00:21
Elliott Wald
how old is he at this point?
00:07:00:22 – 00:07:03:11
Debs Mason
Oh, this was only, what, five, six years ago?
00:07:03:12 – 00:07:20:16
Elliott Wald
Okay, so he’s been using for a long time up to this point. Yeah. He’s he’s he’s usage is going from social infrequently to going out more often to a Friday to a Saturday to a Tuesday to Wednesday to a Monday. So now this is 45 years ago from now.
00:07:20:19 – 00:07:22:26
Debs Mason
That’s when reality kicked in.
00:07:23:03 – 00:07:24:19
Elliott Wald
And what did I do? Life here.
00:07:24:21 – 00:07:31:21
Debs Mason
horrendous. Yeah. Absolutely horrendous. his behavior was absolutely, erratic.
00:07:31:26 – 00:07:34:13
Elliott Wald
Give me an example of something that you remember.
00:07:34:15 – 00:07:51:00
Debs Mason
Oh, phone calls all night long. wanting money. Demanding money. turning up at the house when I was a bed, wanting money. and at that time, you are so drained by it. you just give him money to shut him up, you know?
00:07:51:00 – 00:07:52:29
Elliott Wald
Did you know what you’re giving him money for at.
00:07:52:29 – 00:08:14:10
Debs Mason
That time, then? Yes. Okay. Yeah. but you don’t. You know, afterwards, it’s the wrong thing to do at that time when you haven’t got the knowledge about it. Yeah. you do what you think is right at the time. Yeah, but it wasn’t. It certainly.
00:08:14:10 – 00:08:32:12
Elliott Wald
Wasn’t. Okay. You know, it’s an interesting thing, when you say, you know, you give him money at the time, but it wasn’t the right thing. And maybe you shouldn’t have done that, but, you know, listen, we can all look back on certain things that we do in retrospect and, you know, history as a as a, as a wonderful thing of being able to see things in a different light.
00:08:32:14 – 00:08:44:10
Elliott Wald
And people ask me this often. They say, you know, what do you do with a loved one who has an addiction? Do you use the stick and beat them and try and, you know, beat them into stop using and not using? Would you use the carrot and encourage them?
00:08:44:10 – 00:09:01:27
Debs Mason
Well, I you know, I had sort of like a trainer and a lot of people around me sort of saying, you’ve just stop giving them money, money to giving them any money. And at the end of the day, he was my son. Yeah. And you thought what you were doing at that time was the right thing. and then you had to realize that it wasn’t, you know, and you had to stop.
00:09:02:01 – 00:09:03:13
Debs Mason
Okay. Yeah, I think sorry.
00:09:03:13 – 00:09:13:04
Katrina Roberts
Not only that, that you thought maybe it was the right thing to do, but there were times where she’s been scared of him. Oh, yeah, because he’s.
00:09:13:04 – 00:09:13:16
Debs Mason
You know, if.
00:09:13:16 – 00:09:13:28
Katrina Roberts
You was.
00:09:14:03 – 00:09:14:22
Elliott Wald
Irrational.
00:09:14:23 – 00:09:22:22
Katrina Roberts
The behavior, the erratic ness, the manipulation and that there are times when you’ve been scared about.
00:09:22:22 – 00:09:43:21
Debs Mason
Yeah. And I and I have become all anxious. Yeah. Anxious, but I come. I became the target, okay. Of the, to blame. Someone to blame. So then himself. Yeah. Yeah. Then what he was going through, it was easy. And to blame me, it was my fault that I didn’t get them out of the situation. One that was kids.
00:09:43:21 – 00:09:50:12
Debs Mason
And it was my fault. that he’s like. He is. listen, it is much.
00:09:50:12 – 00:10:02:16
Elliott Wald
Easier to fire out ammunition outwardly than it is to fire inwardly. You sound like you’re quite strong. Says, because you were the one that said to mum, you know, you got to stop giving him money.
00:10:02:19 – 00:10:15:24
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, but I’m like, that is black. Why? I think just cut it out and go just a yeah, I suppose we’ve been through a lot and it has made me a strong person. and yeah, I’m just.
00:10:16:00 – 00:10:34:06
Elliott Wald
How did you feel? Me because, listen, you have an allegiance to your mother, but you also also have a love to your brother, you know? Undoubtedly. So what was that like for you when you realize that my brother’s, like, lying to the family? Because every addict lies. They lie about their own usage. They lie to other people. They like the quantity, the frequency.
00:10:34:11 – 00:10:56:09
Elliott Wald
They’re in denial. Complete denial. Right. So the lines themselves, they lied to everyone else. They’re making excuses for any rationale to be able to go and use right. And it’s hurtful to see your mom having phone calls early hours, you know, give me money. Give me money so you can go to school. And that’s hard for you. But it’s also hard having your brother who has an addiction.
00:10:56:09 – 00:10:59:08
Elliott Wald
What what was that that emotion like for you?
00:10:59:11 – 00:11:22:07
Katrina Roberts
It’s, It’s been really difficult. so when my mum was saying about, Dan having his house building his, you know, he had his first house. At the time, I just met my husband and had my son and that I couldn’t work out why he was trying to keep me away. The time. He didn’t really want to know me.
00:11:22:09 – 00:11:37:29
Katrina Roberts
he was pushing me away. He didn’t want to meet my husband. He didn’t really get to know my son for the first few years of his life. I couldn’t really work out why I. I never got an explanation as to what I’d done at that point. you.
00:11:37:29 – 00:11:39:09
Elliott Wald
Blame yourself by the sound of it?
00:11:39:09 – 00:12:01:08
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. So I took a look. A lot of, like, blame on myself and questioned myself constantly. Like what? What have I done to deserve this sort of behavior? You know, you’re pushing me away. What is it I’ve. I’ve done, I don’t know, and that was hurtful. Especially when I had Mia, who’s my oldest, and, and my son as well at that point.
00:12:01:10 – 00:12:03:11
Katrina Roberts
and, you know, he didn’t come to my wedding.
00:12:03:13 – 00:12:04:15
Elliott Wald
You didn’t come to your wedding?
00:12:04:15 – 00:12:07:17
Katrina Roberts
No, he wasn’t invited. Okay? I didn’t invite him. So there.
00:12:07:17 – 00:12:09:05
Elliott Wald
Was like a huge family rift.
00:12:09:05 – 00:12:16:15
Katrina Roberts
Because that. Yeah, that was a rift and no explanation as to why that went on. Really, in the beginning.
00:12:16:17 – 00:12:24:13
Elliott Wald
So. So he’s habit and his usage had detached himself from the family. That’s what you’re telling me.
00:12:24:13 – 00:12:30:08
Katrina Roberts
I think he was keeping himself a life, right? Yeah, yeah, maybe just trying to hide it, I don’t know.
00:12:30:09 – 00:12:31:24
Elliott Wald
Embarrassment, guilt, shame.
00:12:31:25 – 00:12:32:26
Katrina Roberts
Maybe.
00:12:32:29 – 00:12:50:25
Elliott Wald
Mean. You know, that’s the thing about somebody who has an addiction, you know, it’s this anti-social drug that it eventually becomes that you just want to hide away, be on your own and use. So he’s shiny himself. He’s narrowing down his life, you know, because I’m sure there’s a part of him. He wanted to be a great uncle.
00:12:50:28 – 00:12:59:21
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, he was always a great uncle to my my oldest. The first few years. The first few years were brilliant. And up until she was about three, that’s when I met my husband.
00:12:59:21 – 00:13:01:17
Elliott Wald
And that’s when the habit really kicks in.
00:13:01:17 – 00:13:02:14
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, I think so.
00:13:02:19 – 00:13:03:21
Elliott Wald
Okay.
00:13:03:24 – 00:13:04:24
Katrina Roberts
I think so. But he.
00:13:04:24 – 00:13:10:14
Debs Mason
Wasn’t. It wasn’t living at home then. He was living, you know, he’d got his own place. Yeah. You know, so we’ve.
00:13:10:14 – 00:13:12:00
Katrina Roberts
Been successful in that sense.
00:13:12:00 – 00:13:12:28
Elliott Wald
His boys worked.
00:13:13:06 – 00:13:13:29
Debs Mason
Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:13:14:00 – 00:13:25:05
Elliott Wald
He’s never let his addiction stop him from working. Yeah. I missed your day. Not going in, feeling rough going on benders. but part of his core value was to go to work.
00:13:25:07 – 00:13:49:14
Debs Mason
That was how he was for, you know, he was brought up that he had to work. To what? You know, that’s how I was brought up. And they they learned from me sort of thing that they’ve they’ve had to work sort of like, did you blame yourself? yes, very much so. Very much so. You know, you think, you know, you should have done differently when, when they were younger to get the word out of the situation that we were living in at home with his father was a, chronic alcoholic or binge alcoholic, shall I say.
00:13:49:15 – 00:13:50:26
Elliott Wald
His dad was a binge alcoholic.
00:13:50:26 – 00:13:51:12
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:13:51:14 – 00:13:52:29
Elliott Wald
And you blame yourself?
00:13:53:02 – 00:13:53:17
Debs Mason
not wanting.
00:13:53:18 – 00:13:56:11
Elliott Wald
To be in that situation for longer than you anticipated.
00:13:56:13 – 00:14:13:02
Debs Mason
Yeah, because you don’t. When the kids are small, you don’t have the strength to get them out of that situation. And part of me was stubborn because, I’d been married to Trinidad. and it cost me to, to buy the house off of him when we split up. And I’ll be buggered if I was going to.
00:14:13:02 – 00:14:14:01
Debs Mason
Excuse me.
00:14:14:03 – 00:14:15:20
Elliott Wald
swim boot bucket.
00:14:15:20 – 00:14:24:20
Debs Mason
If I was going to hand it over to to Dan’s dad, who’d put absolutely nothing into the house together. and I had to work my backside off to keep it.
00:14:24:23 – 00:14:35:25
Elliott Wald
You had on your heart. Now, do you really, really think that if you had left him earlier, the dam would not have ended up with an addiction?
00:14:35:28 – 00:15:00:08
Debs Mason
Possibly. But I have looked into it. And addictions? Some addictions. Oh, a lot of addictions are hereditary. Okay, so whether he would have been in that environment or not, I don’t know, but, my father was a good influence on in his life. and I think had he have still been around, Dan would have been a totally different person.
00:15:00:10 – 00:15:27:08
Elliott Wald
I mean, I’m going to say he, I mean, I know Dan, because I spent a lot of time once again with Dan helping him. and I’m incredibly proud. I’m sure you are. We’ll come onto all that later. You know, 165 days. That’s fucking good. You can swear. Yeah. Right. And, But I know, Dan, I know his core values are beneath the addiction, beneath the privado, beneath all of the the shield that hides the real person.
00:15:27:08 – 00:15:45:29
Elliott Wald
I know his core values. And I got to tell you that you should be proud of the person that you brought. Proud of your son. Because he does have great core values, right? What happened was, for whatever particular reason, this addiction took a hold. Okay. And when you talk about what you said earlier, you said, you know, I know it can be a genetic disposition.
00:15:45:29 – 00:16:15:00
Elliott Wald
It can be right. You know, that’s nature and nurture. You know, I I’m going to tell you this, I have clients in every industry, from the heating engineers like Dan to the plasterers, to the people in the building industry, run it through to people who have incredibly privileged backgrounds, incredibly wealthy families who had everything given to them, who had the perfect life, who had the perfect excuse me, everybody.
00:16:15:00 – 00:16:38:11
Elliott Wald
But, six days in a everyone down seems to be a who had the perfect life, who had, you know, everything going for them. They still end up with an addiction. So we can’t look and say it’s because of this or because of that, or because I didn’t do this or because I did do this. Or you can look at is the core values you instilled or are you gonna say.
00:16:38:13 – 00:16:39:01
Katrina Roberts
I don’t know.
00:16:39:01 – 00:16:39:23
Debs Mason
God, I Vietnam.
00:16:40:00 – 00:16:53:29
Elliott Wald
Okay. how did you find that? What about the point when Dan Dan came clean? I should just go back. What about denial? Because there was a point. He was in denial. And I’m sure that since you have noticed that more than anyone.
00:16:54:01 – 00:16:59:11
Debs Mason
I don’t think he actually ever came clean. Clean. It’s just that we found out more and more and more.
00:16:59:13 – 00:17:00:24
Elliott Wald
Okay. Like, well.
00:17:00:27 – 00:17:03:23
Katrina Roberts
I think it’s just that more and more behaviors started to show.
00:17:03:24 – 00:17:04:06
Elliott Wald
Do you mean.
00:17:04:12 – 00:17:09:28
Katrina Roberts
For us, the erratic driving around the village or in in the town?
00:17:10:00 – 00:17:11:01
Elliott Wald
because he would drive.
00:17:11:04 – 00:17:12:00
Katrina Roberts
Psychoses.
00:17:12:00 – 00:17:13:28
Elliott Wald
Without a license, correct? Yeah. Right.
00:17:14:04 – 00:17:35:13
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, yeah. Drug. Drug driving. Yeah. you know, he turn up to come and see me in the kids sometimes and he’d pull up. So fast and you think, like, was loud. Yeah. Please just stop. You know, there are kids around the area, and you try and tell him, you know, slow down, and you shouldn’t be doing this and shouldn’t be doing that.
00:17:35:17 – 00:17:37:04
Katrina Roberts
He didn’t want to listen.
00:17:37:06 – 00:17:49:14
Elliott Wald
okay. So don’t ask this question to both of you individually, though, just for a minute. Just think, what was the worst time you can remember with Dan specifically?
00:17:49:16 – 00:17:52:21
Debs Mason
the night of, the psychotic episode.
00:17:52:22 – 00:17:55:15
Elliott Wald
Going to tell me about that? What happened?
00:17:55:17 – 00:18:04:08
Debs Mason
basically, I got a call. I think I don’t know whether he’d phone me during the day, and he was absolutely bizarre.
00:18:04:10 – 00:18:06:03
Elliott Wald
he’d been using all day, by the way. Yeah.
00:18:06:05 – 00:18:24:12
Debs Mason
Yeah. Okay. and I had a phone call from his friend who was actually at the house at the time. He had been working there. There. And he said, do you want me to call in? And I said, yes. so he called in and he was, in one hell of a state. And he said, I think you need to come up here.
00:18:24:14 – 00:18:39:28
Debs Mason
obviously live in new Jersey and him living in Ipswich. You know, I had to drive up there and this was at night. and I got there and there he was with a baseball bat. Yeah, he was with a baseball bat. He’d been looking it.
00:18:40:00 – 00:18:47:24
Elliott Wald
Sorry. Going. Sorry. He’s been using all day. Yeah, he’s got a baseball bat as you turn up. Yeah, he’s been knocking our heads.
00:18:47:24 – 00:18:56:07
Debs Mason
Yeah. Hits the baseball bat was still there. I was handed that by, by his friend. The police were there. he was put in handcuffs.
00:18:56:10 – 00:18:59:09
Katrina Roberts
It’s not funny. Really? No.
00:18:59:11 – 00:18:59:25
Elliott Wald
I’m sorry.
00:18:59:25 – 00:19:06:05
Debs Mason
Yeah, yeah. the police then turned up. He was in handcuffs. There was an ambulance there as well.
00:19:06:08 – 00:19:07:15
Elliott Wald
complete drug psychosis.
00:19:07:15 – 00:19:32:06
Debs Mason
Oh, yeah. Yeah. with that, they were trying to talk to him. Calm him down. Obviously, he was on another planet. Yeah, two of his friends turned up, and wanted to help him as well. Wanted to go in the ambulance with him, but they weren’t allowed. he was then taken off to hospital, which his mate and I went and followed the ambulance.
00:19:32:06 – 00:19:55:22
Debs Mason
I went there, he was taken into the hospital in handcuffs and we had to wait to, the police were there as well. We had to wait for the doctors and whoever was supposed to be saying to him, we went into a little room. Oh, no. The police took the handcuffs off him, and the staff were absolutely furious because they didn’t want the police to go, but the police didn’t want to wait around any longer.
00:19:55:22 – 00:19:55:29
Debs Mason
Are you.
00:19:55:29 – 00:19:56:14
Elliott Wald
There or this.
00:19:56:14 – 00:19:57:18
Debs Mason
Time there? I’m there.
00:19:57:18 – 00:20:10:15
Elliott Wald
Yeah. That must be difficult for you. Because on one hand, you’re seeing your son in this cycle. Take drug fueled way, and on other side, you’re seeing your son handcuffed, which must be an emotionally.
00:20:10:15 – 00:20:16:10
Debs Mason
Yeah. Because he be, you know, he’s got ADHD. Yeah. So for him to sit still is their own.
00:20:16:13 – 00:20:17:06
Elliott Wald
He’s a fidget a.
00:20:17:09 – 00:20:36:26
Debs Mason
Yo, Crocker. but, we went we were taken into a little room, which Manley’s mate went in with him, and the doctors came in and spoke to him and then just said, wait here. He saw an opportunity of getting out the back door. So he went out the back door through the emergency department. So the security men followed him.
00:20:36:28 – 00:20:45:17
Debs Mason
By now, the, the hospital had taken his capacity away, and we were absolutely relieved because I just thought, right now we’re going to get some.
00:20:45:17 – 00:20:48:06
Elliott Wald
Help when you mean sectioned. So we meant by capacity, you know.
00:20:48:06 – 00:20:54:10
Debs Mason
They took his mental capacity away from him, so they said as such. So then, of course, he got out the back door of this little room.
00:20:54:12 – 00:20:55:15
Elliott Wald
He felt relieved to that.
00:20:55:18 – 00:20:58:15
Debs Mason
Yeah, yeah. Because finally we thought we’re going to get some help.
00:20:58:16 – 00:21:01:03
Elliott Wald
Yeah. We’re like, we’re here, go. This one’s going to help us resolve us.
00:21:01:06 – 00:21:17:24
Debs Mason
yeah. he went out the back door. the security men looking for him. They then, found him. We were at the front of the hospital then where we had two doctors come around and deemed him, perfectly fine and gave him his capacity back. And we can go home now and take him home.
00:21:18:00 – 00:21:26:16
Elliott Wald
Sorry. Well, so you’ve gone from being in the hospital. Police are called handcuffs inside cos still in the husband’s home.
00:21:26:19 – 00:21:27:13
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:21:27:16 – 00:21:36:22
Elliott Wald
That’s assigned. He doesn’t have the mental capacity to be safe. Yeah. Him escaping out of the back door and two other doctors saying no, no. He’s okay. Yeah. Let him go.
00:21:36:24 – 00:21:50:05
Debs Mason
Yeah. We got three security there. the two doctors and they just turned round, said we’re giving capacity about you can take him home. Although he’s might nearly hit the wall and just all said, are you not saying what we’re saying? And they just said sorry, he’s fine. He can go home.
00:21:50:07 – 00:21:51:27
Elliott Wald
And you took him home and I.
00:21:51:27 – 00:22:08:09
Debs Mason
Took him home at that point. And then they said to him that he could come back if they wish to talk to them. So we went back home. I think it was like three, four in the morning. Yeah. tried to get some rest. within an hour he was up and right. He said, you can take me back to the hospital now.
00:22:08:09 – 00:22:16:24
Debs Mason
I’ll go and talk to him now. And, so we went back to the hospital and he said, that’s all right. He said, you can go and leave me at the hospital. so.
00:22:16:29 – 00:22:20:17
Elliott Wald
I’ve been so off you because now you don’t know what to do to help your son?
00:22:20:20 – 00:22:38:14
Debs Mason
No, because he went back to the hospital. God knows what was said then. I don’t know to this day. But I then had to come back to mercy. Drive back to mercy. And within half an hour, to an hour. He turned up in his car again.
00:22:38:16 – 00:22:39:07
Elliott Wald
He’s back home.
00:22:39:07 – 00:22:59:15
Debs Mason
He’s back home now. He drove to mercy. Okay, because he’s home is Ipswich. But but yeah. So then he drove to mercy and his car. Well, And you just wanted you hit your head against a brick wall because the, you know, there isn’t the help that unless you got an X, so there’s no amount of money. There wasn’t the help there into.
00:22:59:15 – 00:22:59:29
Elliott Wald
The private.
00:22:59:29 – 00:23:06:28
Debs Mason
World. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you look at that and there isn’t the after help I feel. Yeah.
00:23:06:28 – 00:23:21:25
Elliott Wald
I mean, I think you’re right. I mean, I looked at rehabs for a long time, and I’ve spoken to a lot of people who run rehabs and, you know, listen, I think there are certain things that work for certain people. You always hear me say that. I think there are certain things that are right for certain people. But I’ve seen a lot of rehab clinics.
00:23:21:25 – 00:23:38:24
Elliott Wald
It’s just the money making machine at the moment. You’re out the door, there is no follow up. Yeah, I had a discussion with a director of five rehab centers a few months ago, and when I asked him their statistics, his answer was, we don’t know. Once they leave, we don’t really care. And if that means successful, then we want to do.
00:23:38:25 – 00:23:40:23
Elliott Wald
Maybe someone paid for them. They’re there for the wrong reasons.
00:23:40:23 – 00:23:51:01
Debs Mason
But when you see all these celebrities and they’re in and out, the whole time, oh yeah, always, you know, you’re Katie Price’s and God knows who else. You know, they’re in and out, in and out. And you just think, well, it’s not working. I love to try something different.
00:23:51:02 – 00:23:51:25
Elliott Wald
Like a holiday.
00:23:51:25 – 00:23:52:26
Debs Mason
Camp. Yeah.
00:23:52:28 – 00:24:00:12
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Okay. And so maybe don’t assess what what for you is the, the worst, you know, time you can remember.
00:24:00:15 – 00:24:25:00
Katrina Roberts
I think going back to 21 when he was 21, knowing that there were suicide attempts for me, I didn’t really know how to deal with that properly. and then fast forward a few years later, there was more suicide attempts seeing him at his new house. just so, so broken and and. No, and knowing that there’s nothing that I could really do.
00:24:25:01 – 00:24:28:10
Katrina Roberts
I was giving him letters. numbers.
00:24:28:13 – 00:24:28:24
Elliott Wald
Mean.
00:24:28:26 – 00:24:30:24
Katrina Roberts
Like writing letters.
00:24:30:27 – 00:24:32:14
Elliott Wald
your feelings that we remember. Letters.
00:24:32:14 – 00:24:58:06
Katrina Roberts
Oh, yeah, I just get it. I wrote a letter to him. went through the front door. different numbers to contact for help. Okay. and the thing is that we tried to get help, and it’s not. You know, there were several times we went to the hospital, you know, he’s come off his bike because he’d been taking drugs and I was at the hospital with him, and he left.
00:24:58:06 – 00:25:13:20
Katrina Roberts
And then first thing you did was go and get some more drugs and the help isn’t there. You’re asking for it. You’re going to the doctors, your phone in different people. But really, to me, it doesn’t feel as if it’s there.
00:25:13:23 – 00:25:25:00
Elliott Wald
And when you try to find some hope for that. And he didn’t want to take the help because it wasn’t right for him. How disheartening, how disheartening for you was that?
00:25:25:03 – 00:25:25:21
Debs Mason
That was hard.
00:25:25:28 – 00:25:27:16
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, that’s really hard.
00:25:27:18 – 00:25:49:16
Debs Mason
And we had, after several suicide attempts, I had the paramedics out at his house, and he just turned around and he said to them, and it was so calmly, he said, please don’t waste your time for me. I don’t want to be here. there’s plenty of other people outside there that you can go and help your, you know, I’m just you’re just wasting your time being here with me.
00:25:49:18 – 00:26:03:15
Debs Mason
And they just turned around and said. Because he knows his own thoughts and that’s what he wants to do. There was nothing they could do to help him. They stayed there a long time to try and talk to him, but in the end they went, yeah, because there’s nothing they could do because that’s what he said he wanted to do.
00:26:03:15 – 00:26:11:14
Debs Mason
So every time I came away from that place, you never knew the next day whether he was going to be alive or dead. And that’s many. And many a times you just.
00:26:11:14 – 00:26:17:29
Katrina Roberts
It starts to affect your own well-being. And then you know how you are dealing with things at home, you know, how did.
00:26:17:29 – 00:26:20:08
Elliott Wald
That affect the dynamics of your family since.
00:26:20:11 – 00:26:25:24
Katrina Roberts
I’ve got a husband and three children and it’s a huge amount of stress on on us.
00:26:26:00 – 00:26:28:05
Elliott Wald
That cause arguments are home.
00:26:28:07 – 00:26:42:18
Katrina Roberts
there have been a couple of arguments at home, like for one example, when we we went away to Cornwall, we were in the, the caravan with the kids and my brother was throwing me out constantly in a psychotic episode.
00:26:42:19 – 00:26:43:15
Elliott Wald
He’s off, his dad’s.
00:26:43:16 – 00:26:59:11
Katrina Roberts
Off his text basically telling me all this random stuff, constant calls about what he’s going to do and I’m trying to have a nice time with my children and my husband. And yeah, it’s it’s a stress for me, of course, affected my wellbeing. Definitely.
00:26:59:11 – 00:27:04:13
Elliott Wald
And the stress of your husband, because at the end of the day, he chose to marry you, not choose to marry a brother.
00:27:04:15 – 00:27:06:26
Katrina Roberts
Well, yeah, he loves my brother, you know.
00:27:06:28 – 00:27:11:00
Elliott Wald
He doesn’t. What I’m saying is everybody has so much patience, right?
00:27:11:06 – 00:27:11:16
Katrina Roberts
Yeah.
00:27:11:17 – 00:27:26:01
Elliott Wald
You’re going to have more patience because you’re emotionally invested more than your husband. He doesn’t care. I think what I’m saying is he’s a step further than you two are away, and then other family members are further and further steps back.
00:27:26:04 – 00:27:52:08
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. He he’s definitely seen the backlash of it. Say if I was if I had been back to my mums and my brother at the time and they’ve got I say it’s quite toxic relationship. So if I’ve gone home into that environment and then I’ve drove back to my home, I’m taking that with me. Of course, you know, and it’s hard to just to chill out sometimes, you know.
00:27:52:10 – 00:28:02:17
Debs Mason
It’s been a, been a constant hasn’t it. The whole the whole way. It’s like stress. He’s like a Jekyll and Hyde or has been like a Jekyll and Hyde. So you don’t know what then you’re going to get coming through the door.
00:28:02:20 – 00:28:03:21
Katrina Roberts
And it makes you feel very.
00:28:03:21 – 00:28:04:14
Debs Mason
Anxious.
00:28:04:14 – 00:28:10:26
Elliott Wald
Yeah, yeah. So knowing he’s going to come and visit you, you are both feeling anxious. who’s going to come through the door?
00:28:10:27 – 00:28:17:26
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. Not necessarily who’s going to come through the door. It’s about his mood and what mood he’s going to be in. Okay.
00:28:17:29 – 00:28:19:27
Elliott Wald
when I say who’s coming through, doing what I meant is.
00:28:19:27 – 00:28:21:08
Katrina Roberts
Oh. With him. Yeah.
00:28:21:10 – 00:28:36:19
Elliott Wald
Who’s going to come through the door? Terms of, listen, you’re in a home and you’re expecting your son or your brother to turn up to come visit, and you’re anxious, which son or which brother’s going to come through the door at that moment in time? Is that the one that’s been using? He’s had the one that’s still using.
00:28:36:22 – 00:28:48:12
Elliott Wald
Is that the one’s using last night, or is this the son and brother that we love, want to be involved in our family and our children? And you know, that’s the brother I want and the son I want.
00:28:48:14 – 00:29:02:06
Debs Mason
Who’s I think with, with Dan, he, because he lost people around him that he needed in his life. Like, my brother’s been a big influence, and been absolutely brilliant to him.
00:29:02:07 – 00:29:04:20
Elliott Wald
When you say lost the brother, would you know.
00:29:04:23 – 00:29:06:00
Debs Mason
Because they took a step back.
00:29:06:01 – 00:29:11:08
Elliott Wald
Okay, so. So they were people that were supportive, encouraging. Like your brother, his uncle.
00:29:11:08 – 00:29:34:24
Debs Mason
Yeah. But he’s he’s he was brilliant. You know, he’s been absolutely brilliant. You know, he has but at times, you know, it was awkward. I must admit, Stephen, my older stepson, absolutely brilliant. He made a promise to Dan that he would, come down every two weeks, drive down from Scotland every two weeks to be here to support him.
00:29:34:24 – 00:29:36:02
Debs Mason
To help him. Oh, come.
00:29:36:02 – 00:29:41:16
Elliott Wald
On, hang on. I didn’t know that. So Dan’s stepbrother lived in Scotland.
00:29:41:16 – 00:29:42:26
Debs Mason
Lived in Scotland? Yeah. Lives in.
00:29:42:26 – 00:29:44:28
Elliott Wald
Scotland. And would drive from Scotland to.
00:29:45:00 – 00:29:45:25
Debs Mason
Every two weeks.
00:29:45:27 – 00:29:47:21
Elliott Wald
Every two weeks to support him.
00:29:47:21 – 00:29:48:00
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:29:48:03 – 00:29:48:15
Elliott Wald
Was his.
00:29:48:15 – 00:29:48:22
Debs Mason
Name.
00:29:48:27 – 00:29:52:09
Elliott Wald
Stephen? Big shout out to you, Stephen, about respect.
00:29:52:12 – 00:29:55:01
Debs Mason
Well, this is a bit awkward. Oh, it’s stepson Stephen.
00:29:55:08 – 00:29:55:29
Elliott Wald
But.
00:29:56:02 – 00:29:59:09
Debs Mason
My brother Stephen, son in law Stephen.
00:29:59:12 – 00:30:00:18
Elliott Wald
There’s a lot of Stephen’s there.
00:30:00:23 – 00:30:03:13
Debs Mason
Yeah. So yeah, Stephen.
00:30:03:13 – 00:30:05:25
Elliott Wald
Might just ride. Come. Yeah. The Stephen’s.
00:30:05:25 – 00:30:26:09
Debs Mason
Yeah. Yeah yeah. No, because Dan was in a bad way and obviously, suicide attempt. So he drove down next day, as soon as he found out, he drove down the next day, and he drove down every couple of weeks, to be there for him. Well, then obviously Dan’s dad died in, not the best circumstances.
00:30:26:12 – 00:30:28:10
Debs Mason
so his behavior escalated.
00:30:28:11 – 00:30:29:11
Elliott Wald
How long ago was there?
00:30:29:12 – 00:30:30:13
Debs Mason
Two years.
00:30:30:16 – 00:30:43:25
Elliott Wald
So two years ago. Dan, that passed away. Yeah. And then Dan’s behavior escalated. Usage escalated? Yeah. He’s. Psychoses escalated. The side effects used escalated.
00:30:43:27 – 00:30:54:15
Debs Mason
So we had that full, that year. And then obviously my mum also while this was going on, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. So I was dealing with her as well.
00:30:54:15 – 00:30:55:15
Elliott Wald
So,
00:30:55:17 – 00:31:10:23
Debs Mason
Yeah. and then a year after losing his dad, we lost my mum, so things escalated again because he was, very close with my mum. So the behaviors then went off the scale again.
00:31:10:25 – 00:31:17:24
Elliott Wald
Listen, I’m going to ask you a question because I’m not frank. As in that phone that you’re phoning. Go. Hey, phone. Frank, have you got a problem?
00:31:17:26 – 00:31:20:05
Debs Mason
Oh. Tried that. Don’t bother.
00:31:20:07 – 00:31:40:14
Elliott Wald
The echo. What I’m going to say is this. If you were to be able to talk to somebody who was at the very beginning of Dan’s journey, not Dan estate Dan at the equation, right. Who started using because they thought it’s a cool thing to do on a weekend. It’s a social thing. I’m in control. I’m never going to become like that.
00:31:40:16 – 00:31:43:29
Elliott Wald
Mum, what would you turn around and say to them? Oh.
00:31:44:02 – 00:31:52:04
Debs Mason
I don’t really know. You know, as a parent, they’ve got to be there to listen, but, not to finance it.
00:31:52:06 – 00:31:54:16
Elliott Wald
As we can. So the parent. Oh, yeah. Okay.
00:31:54:18 – 00:31:55:16
Debs Mason
Definitely not.
00:31:55:16 – 00:32:12:05
Elliott Wald
Well, you tell somebody if you’re the sister now and it’s not Dan, but you’ve seen where it’s done. But you can get to the early stage when this person’s only using socially at the beginning. Who really doesn’t think he’s going to escalate. So problem. What are you going to say to them.
00:32:12:08 – 00:32:25:00
Katrina Roberts
I would always advise somebody not to do that. and go down that route as much as I can. only from experience.
00:32:25:03 – 00:32:35:21
Katrina Roberts
You can only do so much. That’s what I’ve learned in this situation. But sometimes you can advise, you can try and help as much as possible. But there comes a point where.
00:32:35:21 – 00:32:36:21
Debs Mason
It’s not until that this.
00:32:36:21 – 00:32:39:03
Katrina Roberts
Person needs to learn for themselves.
00:32:39:10 – 00:32:41:04
Elliott Wald
How do you think they do that?
00:32:41:07 – 00:32:43:11
Katrina Roberts
Playing rock bottom, I suppose.
00:32:43:14 – 00:32:45:14
Elliott Wald
I’m you gotta hit rock bottom to get back up.
00:32:45:14 – 00:32:46:11
Katrina Roberts
Yeah.
00:32:46:14 – 00:32:48:00
Elliott Wald
You thought Dan reached a point? He hit rock.
00:32:48:00 – 00:32:54:01
Katrina Roberts
Bottom. Definitely. Yeah, I, I didn’t think he would. I didn’t think that he would still be here now.
00:32:54:04 – 00:33:04:03
Debs Mason
No, no. Every day I think we were all waiting for a phone call to say he. He’d either take his own life or he killed himself in the car or the bike.
00:33:04:03 – 00:33:05:04
Katrina Roberts
Or somebody else, or.
00:33:05:04 – 00:33:08:13
Debs Mason
Somebody else. Every day. Every day. It’s like.
00:33:08:13 – 00:33:17:17
Elliott Wald
That. I know that when Dan was on the podcast in me, and he said to me that at one point it got to the point where and I don’t blame him, but my mum called the police on me.
00:33:17:18 – 00:33:18:00
Debs Mason
Oh yeah.
00:33:18:06 – 00:33:19:22
Elliott Wald
What was that? Tell me about that mum.
00:33:19:24 – 00:33:40:02
Debs Mason
That. No. Oh, killed. He was driving like a robotic God knows what. we just didn’t know where he was. I was on the phone to Stephen. He steps A’s, brother, And he said, I’m sorry. You’ve got to phone the police. You’ve got to phone the police. We’ve got to do it for for his own safety.
00:33:40:05 – 00:33:41:10
Debs Mason
so I phoned the place.
00:33:41:10 – 00:33:42:11
Elliott Wald
It’s a hard thing to do, though.
00:33:42:14 – 00:33:58:19
Debs Mason
It’s a hard thing to do. And I had to do it more than once. but I phoned him, and I said he was driving erratically and God knows where he was. We we knew he was around, Ipswich area. as such, I think he stopped his car and was looking for his might under the bloody seat.
00:33:58:19 – 00:33:59:28
Debs Mason
Excuse my French.
00:33:59:28 – 00:34:00:18
Elliott Wald
Paranoia.
00:34:00:22 – 00:34:14:01
Debs Mason
Yeah. oh. He was saying people and God knows what else in the rearview mirror. so I called the police, and then I had the police phoned me back later on to say that been ran there, and he was at home in bed. So, you know.
00:34:14:03 – 00:34:15:02
Katrina Roberts
There was no stopping him.
00:34:15:02 – 00:34:17:06
Debs Mason
There was no stopping him. It wouldn’t matter.
00:34:17:12 – 00:34:18:15
Katrina Roberts
Ruthless. It’s just.
00:34:18:15 – 00:34:20:14
Elliott Wald
About him.
00:34:20:16 – 00:34:21:02
Debs Mason
Else.
00:34:21:04 – 00:34:22:28
Elliott Wald
So this drug or.
00:34:22:28 – 00:34:26:02
Debs Mason
Selfish in the film being selfish was very.
00:34:26:02 – 00:34:27:12
Elliott Wald
I didn’t see the consequences of his.
00:34:27:15 – 00:34:32:25
Debs Mason
No no no no no no. Half the time when you said anything to him, he said you didn’t want to be here anyway. So it didn’t matter.
00:34:32:28 – 00:34:35:04
Katrina Roberts
Nothing else mattered it. And so.
00:34:35:07 – 00:34:52:00
Elliott Wald
Said. Then he came to see me, started changing his life about, started making progress, getting clean, putting things in place. What was the first milestone that you you noticed was the first milestone you noticed when your brother starting to improve and you get your brother back?
00:34:52:01 – 00:35:11:26
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, just being a little bit more present. actually socializing with my children where he just, you know, they’d be around him and he’d blank them, right? Nothing. No acknowledgment at all. so that’s really nice. That’s really nice to say. And just. Yeah, just making more of an effort. Really. That was the first.
00:35:11:29 – 00:35:14:15
Elliott Wald
What was the first things you noticed, mum.
00:35:14:18 – 00:35:35:19
Debs Mason
Yeah. Been being a little bit more calmer. and not so aggressive. Yeah. Has been better. You know, you still struggle some days, you know, and I’m still mum at the end of the day. So if I tell him off, it’s still going to get a little bit of backchat and a little bit of luminous. but yeah, he’s, he’s so much better than what he was.
00:35:35:21 – 00:35:36:28
Debs Mason
So much better.
00:35:37:00 – 00:35:39:13
Elliott Wald
165 days. How proud of you.
00:35:39:16 – 00:35:40:15
Katrina Roberts
Oh, yeah. Amazing.
00:35:40:17 – 00:35:41:18
Debs Mason
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:41:20 – 00:35:43:18
Elliott Wald
You feel like you got him back now?
00:35:43:21 – 00:35:44:28
Katrina Roberts
Getting there, getting there.
00:35:45:00 – 00:35:48:02
Elliott Wald
Oh, there’s a lot of bridges that go beyond that needs to be rebuilt.
00:35:48:02 – 00:35:52:04
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. There’s a lot of trust. Yeah. Think there’s a lot of trust. It’s been broken.
00:35:52:04 – 00:36:00:18
Elliott Wald
And Katrina, let me ask you a question. At what point does that person earn the trust back?
00:36:00:20 – 00:36:05:24
Katrina Roberts
That’s a good question.
00:36:05:27 – 00:36:30:21
Katrina Roberts
For me, it’s about the behaviors still at the moment. Okay. So there are still some concerns. Yeah. And I think until he learns how to control his feelings a little bit more, perhaps it’s just gets very anxious, I think where he gets anxious about a lot of things, it can come across as, aggression.
00:36:30:24 – 00:36:36:27
Elliott Wald
Okay. Doesn’t quite how to channel his emotions in the right way yet?
00:36:37:01 – 00:36:40:05
Katrina Roberts
Not fully, I don’t think. But that’s just my opinion.
00:36:40:10 – 00:36:41:09
Elliott Wald
But he’s working on it.
00:36:41:12 – 00:36:42:07
Katrina Roberts
I think so, yeah.
00:36:42:09 – 00:36:43:04
Elliott Wald
And you see that?
00:36:43:04 – 00:36:44:23
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
00:36:44:25 – 00:37:08:10
Debs Mason
Definitely say that. You know we’ll have a cuddle. You know, if we’ve had words. Not now. because obviously it’s hard for me to let go. I’m constantly watching. I’m constantly looking what he’s doing here because of the ADHD, you know, he doesn’t sit still and you’re forever watching. You’re forever looking at his face. you know, so it’s hard not to sort of like Chip, you know, and I shouldn’t.
00:37:08:12 – 00:37:16:26
Debs Mason
That’s what I should plan. But, we often, you know, if we’ve had words, you know, we’ll now have a cuddle afterwards and, you know, move forward.
00:37:17:03 – 00:37:21:01
Elliott Wald
You know what I get from you? I get a real feeling of love for me. Mum.
00:37:21:03 – 00:37:26:21
Debs Mason
Oh, I love him to bits. He knows that I do. Lovely, lovely thing. Oh, what a cloud. He’s here. But I love him to bits.
00:37:26:25 – 00:37:29:13
Elliott Wald
And that’s part of love, isn’t it? That’s part of loving your child.
00:37:29:19 – 00:37:36:08
Debs Mason
Oh, crikey. Yeah, I love the pair of them. you know, the bee’s knees. My my three grandchildren are all the best in the world.
00:37:36:10 – 00:37:57:17
Elliott Wald
That’s good, that’s good. So, listen, I’m going to bring Dan on in a minute, but not yet. But before I do that, as a as a as a mum, why don’t you do this for us as a mum? Word for us. Would you give to other mums who, whose son or daughter or loved one is going through an addiction?
00:37:57:19 – 00:38:00:00
Elliott Wald
What advice would you give to the parent with a family?
00:38:00:00 – 00:38:25:04
Debs Mason
I think you’ve got to listen and be there for them. and, and certainly but absolutely listen to them. But you’ve you’ve got to know when to take a step back and make them realize when they need to get the help. and I don’t really know. You know, it’s hard because everybody’s situation is different. You know, it’s,
00:38:25:06 – 00:38:29:14
Elliott Wald
When they’re feeling like when the parents, it’s there for. What would you say to them?
00:38:29:16 – 00:38:31:12
Debs Mason
Oh, I don’t know.
00:38:31:15 – 00:38:33:09
Elliott Wald
I still haven’t come up with the answer for yourself.
00:38:33:09 – 00:38:34:16
Debs Mason
No, no that’s fair.
00:38:34:16 – 00:38:50:29
Elliott Wald
And I, I they’re going to ask the same question. So for a sister, a brother who has a loved one, who has an addiction, who’s still in that addiction, what advice would you give to the brother or the sister of the person who has the addiction?
00:38:51:01 – 00:39:17:26
Katrina Roberts
Oh, I think just it’s just to make sure that you’re looking after yourself throughout all of it. I think that’s really important to look after your own wellbeing. because you can get so absorbed into it and then it starts affecting everything else around you, you know, it has such a negative knock on effect. yes. You can be there for the person with the addiction.
00:39:18:00 – 00:39:30:22
Katrina Roberts
You can listen and you can support as much as it’s possible. But like mum said, if if they don’t want to listen, they’ve got to learn for themselves. And that’s a hard lesson for an outsider to, to learn.
00:39:30:27 – 00:39:34:25
Elliott Wald
It’s true. But you didn’t sound like you. Either of you ever gave up.
00:39:34:27 – 00:39:54:13
Debs Mason
Oh, no, I wouldn’t have given it. I have never given up. You know, we we tried so many different, we looked into sort of, different places for him to go to. Different. We’ve tried some bizarre things, you know, put it out there, sort of thought it to him, and he tried different things, but it none of them worked for him.
00:39:54:16 – 00:40:17:04
Debs Mason
And it wasn’t until he watched your podcast with, no, it was, it was a podcast with, Dapper and Cook. Right. And he said, mum, watch this. And then your name was brought up into it sort of thing. And he said, what do you think? so I said, right, give it a go. We’ve given everything else ago, you know, I.
00:40:17:04 – 00:40:18:05
Elliott Wald
Was the last resort.
00:40:18:06 – 00:40:19:26
Debs Mason
It was a last resort. you.
00:40:19:26 – 00:40:20:20
Katrina Roberts
Work.
00:40:20:22 – 00:40:39:07
Debs Mason
But you’ve worked. And, I’d never have thought in a million years that, something so simple. Well, I know it’s not simple, but, you know, as such, would would actually be his turning point. but it’s, you know, I’ll forever grateful when you know that, you know, I.
00:40:39:08 – 00:40:45:15
Katrina Roberts
Think I think it’s because you are a strong male character, and that’s what he’s always needed in his life.
00:40:45:15 – 00:40:47:00
Debs Mason
He never had that.
00:40:47:03 – 00:40:49:29
Katrina Roberts
That, influence. Yeah, I, I.
00:40:50:00 – 00:40:50:17
Elliott Wald
Think I think.
00:40:50:17 – 00:40:51:11
Katrina Roberts
He respects that.
00:40:51:13 – 00:41:05:21
Elliott Wald
I think thank you. I think, one of the things that with my clients is I, I am a straight talking, no nonsense, no bullshit. So as it is, you know, I don’t take prisoners if you like. So I think that’s what you mean, right?
00:41:05:21 – 00:41:06:10
Katrina Roberts
Yeah.
00:41:06:13 – 00:41:23:20
Debs Mason
Yeah. And also, after sort of like he’s had his, you know, treatment with you, you’ve not walked away. You’re there on the phone every week. You know, you’re in constant contact. and that’s what he needs. Yeah. I feel that’s what he needs. Yeah.
00:41:23:21 – 00:41:23:27
Elliott Wald
That’s.
00:41:23:29 – 00:41:32:06
Debs Mason
That’s me. Yeah. Thank you. You know, it’s it’s there, you know, and I just feel like we know you because of through Dan. So thank. You know. So did.
00:41:32:06 – 00:41:34:24
Elliott Wald
You, just before I asked you to come in?
00:41:34:25 – 00:41:36:21
Debs Mason
Oh, no. He’s.
00:41:36:23 – 00:41:41:08
Elliott Wald
Katrina. Did you ever feel like giving up on him?
00:41:41:11 – 00:41:46:09
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, I suppose there were times. Yeah, I had to. Really?
00:41:46:12 – 00:41:47:07
Debs Mason
Your own sanity?
00:41:47:07 – 00:41:53:17
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, I had to, because it was affecting my children and my family. So of course, Stephanie had to.
00:41:53:20 – 00:42:11:06
Elliott Wald
Listen, you said something earlier. I used an analogy for the captain on the plane. Says if the ocean was coming down, you’re going to put it on yourself first before you start helping other people. Otherwise, you’re going to run out of oxygen before you can help anyone else. Yeah, that’s also what you said. Come on down. Come on in.
00:42:11:09 – 00:42:16:14
Elliott Wald
Mind the camera. Are you coming around here? Yes. Squeeze around. So this is down.
00:42:16:16 – 00:42:21:13
Dan Mason
There, everyone. Hello? Oh, sorry. Yes. Shimmy past here. Breathe in a bit.
00:42:21:16 – 00:42:32:05
Elliott Wald
And as you know, this is Dan’s mom and sister, so I just thought I’m going to put down on the spotlight. So he’s actually on camera and, come in the closest of the night.
00:42:32:07 – 00:42:32:25
Dan Mason
Like we’re in.
00:42:33:00 – 00:42:48:27
Elliott Wald
Perfect. So listen, we’re here, right? And he can’t get away. And so let’s just start with. Just so damn what he’s put you through. We’ll come to the niceties after.
00:42:48:29 – 00:42:50:26
Debs Mason
Help!
00:42:50:29 – 00:42:51:19
Elliott Wald
Go, mum!
00:42:51:23 – 00:42:53:18
Debs Mason
Absolute hell. He’s put us away.
00:42:53:21 – 00:42:54:13
Elliott Wald
Anything more?
00:42:54:18 – 00:42:58:15
Debs Mason
Yeah, it’d be so much better. Well, I’m going to put it down in.
00:42:58:17 – 00:43:12:12
Elliott Wald
He said something. His trainer. You said he’s still building trust, right? Tell me. So? So, Dan. What? He has to do more to build that trust for you and your family to cement that.
00:43:12:14 – 00:43:30:12
Katrina Roberts
Just keep making himself present, I suppose. And calm. just try and control his emotions a little bit better around my mum and myself. And I think gradually we’ll get there, you know?
00:43:30:15 – 00:43:43:00
Dan Mason
I mean, like, we can all feel like we’re losing everything and hitting rock bottom, but, you know, a tree loses its leaves every year and starts over again from rock bottom, doesn’t it?
00:43:43:03 – 00:43:43:21
Elliott Wald
Oh.
00:43:43:24 – 00:43:45:05
Dan Mason
So yeah, he’s been like.
00:43:45:05 – 00:43:47:00
Elliott Wald
He’s been reading those books.
00:43:47:03 – 00:44:06:12
Dan Mason
He like the tick tock tick. Yeah yeah yeah. Like you know, but for me, sometimes it feels like there’s only a certain amount of times you’re allowed to do that or some people won’t. You don’t want to watch someone go around that circle over and over and over. I understand, you know, but, yeah, you got to give people chance.
00:44:06:12 – 00:44:09:25
Dan Mason
Room to to grow your own. It takes time. Yeah.
00:44:09:27 – 00:44:11:22
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. You’re still in recovery. At the end of the.
00:44:11:22 – 00:44:18:02
Dan Mason
Day, I’ll always been in recovery or some sort of, some sort of,
00:44:18:07 – 00:44:30:23
Elliott Wald
Do you find it frustrating? Sorry. One second. Do you find it frustrating when you’ve made all the progress and you’re still not 1,000% accepted?
00:44:30:26 – 00:44:47:22
Dan Mason
yeah. You know, sometimes it can just you get a sly comment and stuff, and whenever you doing something or, you know, you do have a bad day and you do, we’ll get long days at work or feel a bit rough or more or anything, but, you know, you get tired. Comments. Oh, you want one of them. You obviously on it.
00:44:47:22 – 00:44:56:25
Dan Mason
Last night went you and got out of the shop. You just been about your day though. Yeah I mean with dealer it just just decide because whatever you say, sometimes you feel you you won’t believe. Yeah.
00:44:56:26 – 00:45:00:06
Elliott Wald
You know sometimes you just think when is this going to stop.
00:45:00:06 – 00:45:01:27
Dan Mason
Yeah. Yeah. Basically.
00:45:01:27 – 00:45:15:02
Elliott Wald
But then from that side of you, they heard it over and over and over and over again after year after year. Yeah. And give them their dues. Done. They haven’t. Listen, no matter what your mum has done in terms of calling the police, rightly wrongly.
00:45:15:04 – 00:45:16:14
Dan Mason
Oh yeah. Don’t have any of that.
00:45:16:15 – 00:45:18:22
Elliott Wald
Right. But they stood by you.
00:45:18:25 – 00:45:39:04
Dan Mason
Yeah. There, there is that they do you know, we can all talk a good part and and that but it’s you know that sometimes you’ve got to have. Yeah. Like you’ve got to actually mean that what you say, you know, and, and I think the massive thing with all of us here is, actions speak louder than words.
00:45:39:11 – 00:45:42:07
Elliott Wald
What do you mean by that?
00:45:42:09 – 00:45:59:21
Dan Mason
because of all, you know, like, how many times do you. Have you heard me saying it over and over and over before we actually start making progress and like with said, you know, you said in comments in that little negligent little not stop. But like they sort of don’t, I think they just needs to be like a neutral ground of like, I’m on, she’s head on.
00:45:59:21 – 00:46:05:28
Katrina Roberts
But I do think that but I also think that needs to come both ways. That works both ways because.
00:46:06:01 – 00:46:08:28
Elliott Wald
That’s who who starts making that progress first.
00:46:09:00 – 00:46:10:27
Katrina Roberts
I think everybody needs to make an effort.
00:46:11:00 – 00:46:13:02
Dan Mason
That’s a fair ground. That’s a sensible ground.
00:46:13:08 – 00:46:24:00
Elliott Wald
So what do you do, Katrina? I just I start making that better than it is right now. I’m going to tell you what he’s going to do, because he’s going to tell you about me.
00:46:24:00 – 00:46:29:29
Katrina Roberts
It’s probably letting go of letting go of the past, letting go of what has happened, and just moving forward as much.
00:46:30:00 – 00:46:31:02
Elliott Wald
There’s a lot there, right?
00:46:31:03 – 00:46:33:15
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. There is a lot of hurt there. And,
00:46:33:18 – 00:46:36:24
Debs Mason
I don’t think he I think he still blames me.
00:46:36:27 – 00:46:37:16
Elliott Wald
Blames you?
00:46:37:19 – 00:46:38:07
Debs Mason
Yeah.
00:46:38:10 – 00:46:39:17
Elliott Wald
Go on.
00:46:39:19 – 00:46:45:02
Debs Mason
Through. You know, like I say, from when he was younger and things like that. Because that’s when he’ll start with me.
00:46:45:04 – 00:47:01:25
Dan Mason
Do you know what happens here? In my opinion, my eyes is that they’re stuck in the past and they can’t move forward. I really, really are. And they just can’t get past that barrier of wit. We’re now making progress and you’re just just there that we just need to come forward.
00:47:01:25 – 00:47:28:18
Elliott Wald
This is the most interesting thing of all, because 165 days clean, huge progress. We’ve all given him props, and you can see how years and years of having addiction can cause such deep levels of pain that even though you all can still you love yourself. You know, especially, you know, both of you. Actually, I really feel for me because I didn’t have a mum, so I actually feel that a lot, to be fair.
00:47:28:21 – 00:47:29:25
Elliott Wald
about a sister either.
00:47:29:28 – 00:47:35:09
Dan Mason
And I do check with you on this.
00:47:35:12 – 00:47:43:11
Elliott Wald
you know, it takes a lot to rebuild that. And I’m starting to hear that even over 165 days, that there’s still a lot of work to do, right?
00:47:43:14 – 00:47:43:27
Katrina Roberts
Oh, yeah.
00:47:43:27 – 00:47:46:09
Elliott Wald
That’s on all sides. Yeah.
00:47:46:11 – 00:47:51:27
Dan Mason
But, you know. But who are we going to put a date on this, a checkpoint or something, Mark or what.
00:47:51:27 – 00:47:52:24
Debs Mason
No I think.
00:47:52:24 – 00:47:54:10
Dan Mason
When is it going to get the sort of come.
00:47:54:11 – 00:47:56:24
Katrina Roberts
It needs to be a daily occurrence. Yeah.
00:47:56:26 – 00:47:59:21
Dan Mason
yeah. So we’ve got ringing in check in each day. Not overload.
00:47:59:22 – 00:48:04:05
Katrina Roberts
Check. Check in with yourself before you walk into the house. Oh, yeah. That that would be.
00:48:04:07 – 00:48:27:26
Elliott Wald
So the thing about someone with addiction is, once they’ve got over it and once they’ve had a period, it’s time. They’re looking for closure. They’re looking to be forgiven, forgotten, moved on. But when you’ve lived through yourself, you’re looking to go. You still got to prove it. Some. You still create a lot. I can’t just quite closer. So you’re in slightly different places and somehow you go meet together.
00:48:27:28 – 00:48:39:29
Dan Mason
Then I totally, totally agree with that. I agree with that because, you know, as you said, it’s really hundred 65 days in. We had the luxury of coming down to see you at the live event.
00:48:40:00 – 00:48:42:12
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Of then we definitely did live. Yeah.
00:48:42:15 – 00:48:51:01
Dan Mason
Yeah. So that was obviously first time meeting in a little while. Once we were down there was in that environment where I, there was a lot of uses there that they.
00:48:51:01 – 00:48:51:29
Elliott Wald
Would never absolutely.
00:48:51:29 – 00:49:13:04
Dan Mason
Not elect happens and stuff like that. That’s not that was a hard, hard thing to be around. But because of the event and that that gave you positivity and that gave you the strength to to be able to be around it. But so you’ve always got a bit of self control with that, but sometimes you in them situations and that people just assume that you’ve done wrong because you’re in an environment you don’t mean there’s a.
00:49:13:04 – 00:49:33:13
Elliott Wald
Lot of things that question do doing wrong. I think it’s a question of this, you know, if I was to if I was to sum it up, not sum up like this, and I’d say this to you, mum and says addiction, addictions, a natural thing. Let me explain why. Right. Human nature is about looking for something that gives us some sort of pleasure.
00:49:33:16 – 00:50:00:26
Elliott Wald
Forget what the substances, whatever it is. And if you find something that gives you pleasure, it’s human nature. You’re going to do it more and more and more and more. And when you first start using the packet, you don’t see the negative consequence. All you see is the pleasure. By the time you get to this point where it’s relieving a, it’s a temporary relief from your problems in life and you have problems.
00:50:00:28 – 00:50:25:20
Elliott Wald
Only then do you see that using is more problems, but the actual using was helping you deal with the problems and you’re so far in it’s difficult to get out at that point. There’s natural ability to seek pleasure is detrimental to you because everything you do has become less and less less, right? So by that point, for that person who’s using, then it set out to do this.
00:50:25:20 – 00:50:51:06
Elliott Wald
But you’re the family. You and I never created this situation. I never made you do this. I’ve never not loved you. I’ve never not been there for you. It’s a difficult thing. So now we reach this point, we go somehow we’ve got bridges and come together because all three of you are very loving. So I’m going to ask you, what would you say to your mum now that she stood by you and been there for you and loved you and supported you royally?
00:50:51:06 – 00:50:59:13
Elliott Wald
She made some right decisions and she made some wrong decisions, which she’s here to say right. What would you say to your mum for everything she’s done?
00:50:59:15 – 00:51:10:24
Dan Mason
You don’t realize how strong you are and how tough you are and the stuff that we put you through, both of us, not just just myself and how much we all do. Do we love you and appreciate you?
00:51:10:26 – 00:51:11:29
Debs Mason
Nice to hear that.
00:51:12:04 – 00:51:12:24
Dan Mason
You know, actually.
00:51:12:28 – 00:51:14:27
Elliott Wald
And see your sister.
00:51:15:00 – 00:51:19:05
Dan Mason
Oh, because, you know I’m not wrong up there. Yeah, she’s to build up trust but.
00:51:19:07 – 00:51:21:11
Elliott Wald
A bit hard. And I.
00:51:21:13 – 00:51:24:21
Dan Mason
You know she’s got a she’s got a decent proving grounds on her behalf you.
00:51:24:21 – 00:51:37:24
Elliott Wald
Know. Oh no seriously. Right. She’s no matter what you follow now the pair of you I get that you’ve built that together. You kind of know nephew nephews as much. You’ve started to make strides to doing that. Correct.
00:51:37:25 – 00:51:39:21
Dan Mason
That’s probably the.
00:51:39:23 – 00:51:40:06
Elliott Wald
Biggest.
00:51:40:06 – 00:51:59:14
Dan Mason
Thing I think, for my sister with that is the fact of regardless of our differences and damages being caused that never come between the kids and spending time with the kids and stuff like that, and spending time with my nieces and nephews is, is is most important, you know, the nest.
00:51:59:16 – 00:52:00:23
Elliott Wald
She’s never shut you out. She’s.
00:52:00:23 – 00:52:08:07
Dan Mason
No, that’s what I mean. That’s what I mean. So but going back to at that point when I didn’t go to her wedding, I wasn’t around for them few years because it.
00:52:08:09 – 00:52:08:21
Elliott Wald
Fucked.
00:52:08:21 – 00:52:14:24
Dan Mason
Up. Yeah, because that moral ground in it, you you don’t do this sort of stuff around kids. You don’t do. I mean, you don’t.
00:52:15:00 – 00:52:21:07
Elliott Wald
It ain’t never done right. Yeah. So this is your chance to say I didn’t go to your wedding. I didn’t do this. What do you want to say to her?
00:52:21:13 – 00:52:37:25
Dan Mason
I was off my head. I was away with the fairy, I mean, but and and there’s probably probably of the saddest things I’ve actually had to miss out on, really. And probably one of the lowest points. Other than asking mum for money, I’ll probably die of addiction. Definitely.
00:52:37:25 – 00:52:44:12
Katrina Roberts
Yeah. Because if I had anybody to walk me down the aisle, it would have been my brother. Oh, don’t have a dad.
00:52:44:12 – 00:52:46:13
Elliott Wald
But he’s now so sorry. Can’t go back.
00:52:46:14 – 00:52:48:10
Katrina Roberts
Yeah, now we can’t go back to that.
00:52:48:12 – 00:52:53:25
Elliott Wald
But what can he do now to make it tight between the two of you and the kids?
00:52:53:27 – 00:52:58:10
Katrina Roberts
I think it’s important just to keep talking and being honest. And do.
00:52:58:10 – 00:52:58:23
Elliott Wald
You forgive.
00:52:58:23 – 00:53:01:01
Katrina Roberts
Him? Yeah, of course I do.
00:53:01:04 – 00:53:09:19
Dan Mason
Yeah. We got. Oh, me. Well, you got a there’s got to be a point in many family, you know, we have some of us as friends and family. We don’t get to always pick him. But yeah I think forgive let.
00:53:09:20 – 00:53:12:08
Elliott Wald
Me just say you got a fucking family. Yeah.
00:53:12:08 – 00:53:13:29
Dan Mason
I’ll have to think. This is you.
00:53:13:29 – 00:53:18:25
Elliott Wald
I see you, I, I, I have, I have a different perspective because I don’t have a family, you know, my dad.
00:53:18:25 – 00:53:19:20
Debs Mason
But you can join us.
00:53:19:26 – 00:53:33:24
Elliott Wald
I’m going to be there. Don’t you worry. Listen, I have, Well, I mean, I have my own family now, but I didn’t grow up. I didn’t have a family. My dad was killed when I was very young. My mom was, let’s just say, not really a mum, you know, like my mum used to write in her diary.
00:53:33:27 – 00:53:54:03
Elliott Wald
I must remind myself that. So, Eddie, I love him tomorrow. Then she’d love him if I was gone, if I was to go and listening to you guys right? Is. So how was the first time we’ve had a family in together? I’ve always interviewed clients or people who’ve had addictions. I’ve never had a mum and a sister and the person who had the addiction in together.
00:53:54:03 – 00:54:01:18
Elliott Wald
So for me is is quite a it’s a real heartwarming thing because I didn’t have a family, I didn’t have anyone supporting me. I didn’t have the love that you guys have.
00:54:01:18 – 00:54:22:06
Dan Mason
But can you, could you you know, I think it’s a bit of an appreciation moment that you need to enjoy as well, because of you listening to the damage and the destruction and all this all the time with people with addictions and their problems. And you’ve seen how much my addiction have destroyed my family. But then this reflects on you to where we’re at now is because of what we’ve had from you.
00:54:22:06 – 00:54:33:09
Dan Mason
And the support and the time you spent with us has brought this all back. And this is what it’s all done there. So I’m going to say this moment in time. Thank you very much, Elliot. Well, what you have done. Yeah.
00:54:33:11 – 00:54:40:08
Elliott Wald
Well. Thank you. Yeah. So definitely I think that takes us to conclusion. What a beautiful ending. Thank you for joining me.
00:54:40:08 – 00:54:41:27
Dan Mason
I very much thank you.
00:54:41:28 – 00:54:43:22
Elliott Wald
And this is coming clean with me.
00:54:43:24 – 00:54:45:00
Dan Mason
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:54:45:01 – 00:54:45:10
Katrina Roberts
Bye.